Informed Choice? - Page 2

jenc · 04-05-2008, 03:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Aniseteph

1."fresh approach to Egyptian style". Is it so stale and/or inaccessible as it is? "Fresh approach" is a phrase that often makes me go hmmmmm...

2. "...all the traditional classic movements of Arabic and Turkish dance..". Movements of.. And introducing aspects from other styles. Suggests mishmashing, even if it is explained at the time.

So if that's what you want to learn/teach, fine, and nice to have it described so clearly

. But to me the fundamental difference between the styles is more than just a different vocabulary of moves; it's a whole different attitude. A course of classes with a different style in each lesson would be a great way for students to make a more informed choice, but playing pick 'n' mix with the moves won't give you a feel for what Egyptian/Turkish/ATS etc might be really all about.

But hey, it might just be I'm reading it all wrong

you just got my point entirely. Most people get no idea of what egyptian dance is from their teacher. They think that it is just about the movements they drill (which are westernised anyway), so of course when they hear that they can get added value from all these other elements, they are NOT making an informed choice.
I have nothing against drilling as such, as Westerners,usually starting later eg as adults, we need to get our isolations ultra isolated before we are able to disregard that and get back to connecting with the music.
What we are getting so often these days is western oriental dance mixed in with westernised versions of other dance traditions.
Chicken tikka pizza, anyone? But how about if we made it with french brioche dough, and added some sauerkraut? When is a pizza not a pizza, and when is "fusion", or "tribal" no longer worth doing?

da Sage · 04-05-2008, 04:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jenc

xxxxxxx offers a fresh approach to authentic Egyptian dance for everyone to experience and enjoy. .........
...The classes cover a range of styles and are not "pure Egyptian." We offer all the traditional classic movements of Arabic and Turkish dance and introduce some challenging aspects from ATS (American Tribal Style) and Tribal Fusion. We feel this gives the student a insight into all the options available and then you can make an informed choice as to which style you prefer.

How do you make an informed choice when being taught a complete mixture of moves, occasionally told, oh this move is egyptian, tribal etc.

You know, this doesn't seem so bad to me. Especially as compared to only being told what teacher your teacher learned the move from, or not being told anything about the source of the moves at all!

jenc · 04-05-2008, 04:06 PM

I should declare here that I'm not a purist. I want to dance egyptian style because it blows me away, but I may well do a veil dance without worrying about the fact that egyptians don't. And I don't want anyone to tell me that I shouldn't have done hip ups cos they are turkish or any such. For me egyptian style is almost entirely not about the steps, it's about the flow, the emotion, the way the dancer carries herself, and about the music.

jenc · 04-05-2008, 04:15 PM

did I say we wre told anything about where any of the moves came from? Oh once I was told "
You like egyptian, this move is egyptian its a "Fifi Abdo special"

da Sage · 04-05-2008, 04:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jenc

did I say we wre told anything about where any of the moves came from? Oh once I was told "
You like egyptian, this move is egyptian its a "Fifi Abdo special"

Well, of course you are right, if you are never told the source of a move, there will be no informed choice. From your initial post, I thought some identification was a regular part of the the class.

Personally, I am learning lots of "Margo moves", but I have no clue if they are Lebanese, Turkish, Moroccan, or what! At some point I hope to find out from Margo herself.

karena · 04-05-2008, 04:34 PM

maybe i'm missing something but i really can't read all that from that quote. suggests to me they are stating the difference, as they are stating it right there.

i think it really depends on the teacher. i suppose i'm just being obvious now. but there's nothing wrong with chicken tikka pizza if you say this bit here is italian, and now i'm adding a bit of indian. the difference is what you do and don't say. maybe there's more info behind the quote than is accessible here. surely fusion is worth doing for as long as someone wants to. but if they label it as something other, that is where it makes a difference.
nevermind, i'm rambling...

jenc · 04-05-2008, 04:52 PM

I think not everyone got that I am talking about a class that I attended, and I am quibbling with the informed choice, as I didn't see anything that I would have called egyptian and the only reason I know that the music was turkish is that I googled it. I don't think that any of the other students had a clue what I was talking about when I said I liked egyptian style. I would have been happier for the teacher to say right out that she taught tribal or fusion, or whatever, but she says she teaches egyptian (albeit alongside other elements). I had hoped to learn at least something that I could relate to. I guess that the pizza analogy could be looked at the other way. What if I told you it was indian food (with italian influence). (Although maybe that doesn't even work as there ARE indian pizza takeaways in Leicester that serve totally different food to what you would expect from a pizza.

karena · 04-05-2008, 05:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jenc

I think not everyone got that I am talking about a class that I attended, and I am quibbling with the informed choice,

Ah i see. Didn't get that, makes sense now

On the when is a pizza not a pizza thing, you could spend a lifetime on that one, and many people have. When is one thing one and not another. When does a pile of grains of sand become a heap? The thousandth? But what about the 999th or the 1001th. Is there one tiny grain of sand that changes the whole definition? My word, I really am rambling now. Next it'll be trees with no-one around to hear them

Aniseteph · 04-05-2008, 05:28 PM

If you are teaching mishmash (

for labelling it as such and

for saying this is Turkish style, this is ATS etc) you are not going to get the essence and feeling behind the different styles across. OK the students will learn there are different styles (

), but "insight"? I don't think so. IMO the way to get an insight into the differences is to experience as much of the definitive, unfused style as you can get.

Reen.Blom · 04-05-2008, 06:36 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jenc

I have nothing against drilling as such, as Westerners,usually starting later eg as adults, we need to get our isolations ultra isolated before we are able to disregard that and get back to connecting with the music.

Hey this is actually a great point, makes more things clear to me...

Quote:

Originally Posted by jenc

What we are getting so often these days is western oriental dance mixed in with westernised versions of other dance traditions.

As for that... well I have nothing agains "Westernized" dance, if the dancer posesses grace, technique and connects with music- fine by me, as long as she does not try to 'sell' it for 'Authentic' whatever

04-05-2008, 04:34 PM	#16 (permalink)
karena Moderator Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: The North, UK Posts: 810	maybe i'm missing something but i really can't read all that from that quote. suggests to me they are stating the difference, as they are stating it right there. i think it really depends on the teacher. i suppose i'm just being obvious now. but there's nothing wrong with chicken tikka pizza if you say this bit here is italian, and now i'm adding a bit of indian. the difference is what you do and don't say. maybe there's more info behind the quote than is accessible here. surely fusion is worth doing for as long as someone wants to. but if they label it as something other, that is where it makes a difference. nevermind, i'm rambling... __________________ "Nothing is black and white, it's all shades of grey" Me

04-05-2008, 05:28 PM	#19 (permalink)
Aniseteph V.I.P. Join Date: Jul 2006 Location: Sussex, England Posts: 1,687	If you are teaching mishmash ( for labelling it as such and for saying this is Turkish style, this is ATS etc) you are not going to get the essence and feeling behind the different styles across. OK the students will learn there are different styles (), but "insight"? I don't think so. IMO the way to get an insight into the differences is to experience as much of the definitive, unfused style as you can get.

04-05-2008, 04:06 PM	#13 (permalink)
jenc V.I.P. Join Date: Feb 2008 Location: Colchester UK Posts: 1,023	I should declare here that I'm not a purist. I want to dance egyptian style because it blows me away, but I may well do a veil dance without worrying about the fact that egyptians don't. And I don't want anyone to tell me that I shouldn't have done hip ups cos they are turkish or any such. For me egyptian style is almost entirely not about the steps, it's about the flow, the emotion, the way the dancer carries herself, and about the music.

04-05-2008, 04:15 PM	#14 (permalink)
jenc V.I.P. Join Date: Feb 2008 Location: Colchester UK Posts: 1,023	did I say we wre told anything about where any of the moves came from? Oh once I was told " You like egyptian, this move is egyptian its a "Fifi Abdo special"

04-05-2008, 04:52 PM	#17 (permalink)
jenc V.I.P. Join Date: Feb 2008 Location: Colchester UK Posts: 1,023	I think not everyone got that I am talking about a class that I attended, and I am quibbling with the informed choice, as I didn't see anything that I would have called egyptian and the only reason I know that the music was turkish is that I googled it. I don't think that any of the other students had a clue what I was talking about when I said I liked egyptian style. I would have been happier for the teacher to say right out that she taught tribal or fusion, or whatever, but she says she teaches egyptian (albeit alongside other elements). I had hoped to learn at least something that I could relate to. I guess that the pizza analogy could be looked at the other way. What if I told you it was indian food (with italian influence). (Although maybe that doesn't even work as there ARE indian pizza takeaways in Leicester that serve totally different food to what you would expect from a pizza.