ATS musicality

[Jane]

Would someone please explain the concept of musicality in ATS style dance to me? I've watched many ATS performances and I am not understanding how the dancers are hearing and interpreting the music. I see how they use the count to structure the combinations, but how are the combinations selected to fit the phrase?

 

[Farasha Hanem]

I was hoping someone would respond to this, because I'd like to know, too.

I only got to take ATS classes for about two or three months. Maybe it was because I was/am a beginner in ATS, we mainly concentrated on the basic Tribal moves and learning to "follow the leader," using vocal cues. It wasn't about expressing the music, but keeping in sync with one another. The music we mostly used had a constant beat, mainly Ren Faire music with a drone. So much for my experience.

 

[ana_bat]

Would someone please explain the concept of musicality in ATS style dance to me? I've watched many ATS performances and I am not understanding how the dancers are hearing and interpreting the music. I see how they use the count to structure the combinations, but how are the combinations selected to fit the phrase?

The way I understand it from my teacher and experiences in our troupe, its up to the lead dancer to interpret and choose whatever movement(s) from the ATS (we are a sister studio so we adhere to the FatChance structure) vocabulary, and the rest of the dancers follow behind. As I understand it there are not heavy set rules in place for musicality in relation to what dance moves work best. It's largely about the dancer's interpretation.

In the few years I've been doing ATS, you just sort of pick up what moves work well with what sorts of rhythms, or sounds and accents. A basic rule of thumb is that slow movements stay with slow music, and fast movements stay with fast music. You don't generally mix n' mingle the two unless your piece of music slows down or speeds up. That seems very basic, but you'd be surprised.

We don't really operate on a combination system either, whoever is in the lead position is really dancing in the moment and selecting the next move as it becomes necessary. Though I will say that in ATS it becomes very useful to understand that each move belongs to a "movement family," and the smoothest transitions happen when you start to memorize the moves and their related steps.

Also, I feel that the need to address musicality is growing, especially because many people cannot naturally develop "the ear" (no pun intended!) for it without guidance. Though one useful tool is knowing your music well and finding which parts of the song have the most striking, or strongest phrases, and pairing these parts of the music with movements that seem to communicate what the piece of music makes you feel. The big thing in ATS is dancing in the moment and interpretation versus a more technical approach with respect to musicality as might be found in Oriental Dance. That is not to say however, that ATS is void of any musicality at all.

Hopefully I haven't confused you any further! This is the best way I can explain it now, still a super student, but in a few years after some teacher training, I might be able to break it down better

 

[Silverfyre]

Hmmm........I have been racking my brains all day trying to think of how to answer this question and I just cant figure out exactly how to explain it!!

I suppose we would select moves and combinations as any dancer of another style would...but I don't know! For example there is a song I love to dance to called 'Azara l'Akhdar by Helm and to me parts of it just scream out for a Turkish Shimmy quarter turn or an Arabic 123. Some moves suit certain pieces of music, others don't, and it's just up to the lead dancer at the time to decide what moves, combinations and formations would work well.

As for fast songs though, here is what Carolena says over on FCBD website "You are bound to the beat with a fast song, you are either on the beat or you aren't-no interpretation here and all measures start with the right foot on one." So there is no interpretation with fast, however you are still choosing moves and combos that compliment the phrasing of the music. Carolena also says "there are sometimes slow melodies during fast songs and fast rhythms during slow songs; in that case you have to go by 'feel' and make an artistic decision".

Sorry I know I'm not answering this very well, it's a difficult thing to put into words...I'll have a think on it and see if if I can try explain it better...bit of a slow brain day here!!

 

[Silverfyre]

ana_bat you explained that so well!!!!!! Here was me typing away trying to put it into words and you did it perfectly

Kudos to you

 

[ana_bat]

I was hoping someone would respond to this, because I'd like to know, too.

I only got to take ATS classes for about two or three months. Maybe it was because I was/am a beginner in ATS, we mainly concentrated on the basic Tribal moves and learning to "follow the leader," using vocal cues. It wasn't about expressing the music, but keeping in sync with one another. The music we mostly used had a constant beat, mainly Ren Faire music with a drone. So much for my experience.

That's a bummer! It can be a lot of fun, ATS!
Though with the vocal cues... :think:
Sounds more like ITS to me, which can end up being a whole lot more different than ATS. But I'll stop because soon I'll start nit-picking! :lol:

And in the beginning it can feel slow, especially if you're a more advanced dancer/student with experience in another style of dance. But I promise in the hands of a good teacher it gets better!

 

[ana_bat]

ana_bat you explained that so well!!!!!! Here was me typing away trying to put it into words and you did it perfectly

Kudos to you

But...it's a toughie for sure! I can't wait to be a teacher just so I can open that binder full of mysteries. I'm starting to think we really need a more in-depth section on musicality! Sorry for being slightly OT

 

[Silverfyre]

But...it's a toughie for sure! I can't wait to be a teacher just so I can open that binder full of mysteries. I'm starting to think we really need a more in-depth section on musicality! Sorry for being slightly OT

Well it sounds like you'll be a great teacher when the time comes I'm trying to work on my explanations of all things ATS for when I go in to teaching as it's one of the things I struggle with, I find it hard to translate what's in my brain into actual words :lol:

 

[mahsati_janan]

We don't really operate on a combination system either, whoever is in the lead position is really dancing in the moment and selecting the next move as it becomes necessary.

I am somewhat confused by this. Do you mean that you do not use ATS cued combinations as you dance? My understanding is that the person in the lead is choosing from a set of pre-designed combinations within the ATS vocabulary rather than selecting individual movements. Am I misunderstanding?

 

[Silverfyre]

We would be selecting individual movements. We only have a few set combos such as the sholuder shimmy-hip drop combo, the ghawazee shimmy combo and the chico circle up combo. Certain moves have variations which we can transition into from the foundation move, for example if we are in basic egyptian we can cue half turns and from there we then cue either a full turn or calibrated spins, but these are not set combinations and are down to the lead dancer choosing what would best fit the phrasing of the music.

 

[mahsati_janan]

We would be selecting individual movements. We only have a few set combos such as the sholuder shimmy-hip drop combo, the ghawazee shimmy combo and the chico circle up combo. Certain moves have variations which we can transition into from the foundation move, for example if we are in basic egyptian we can cue half turns and from there we then cue either a full turn or calibrated spins, but these are not set combinations and are down to the lead dancer choosing what would best fit the phrasing of the music.

Ok - I am definitely confused. This is very different to the ATS workshops I have taken. In each, there were combinations (say 16 or 32 counts each) that were cued by the leader and performed by all of the dancers. When each combo drew to an end, another combination was cued. This has also been the case with the ATS troupes and instructors that I have known.

Do I understand you correctly? In your group, for example, do you mean you could do 1 hip drop, 1 undulation, 1 hip circle, and 1 shimmy in a row without it being a cued combination? How is that different than just dancing and other dancers following you without any cues? Sorry for all of the questions, but this is very different from anything I have learned about ATS before either reading or in person.

 

[ana_bat]

I am somewhat confused by this. Do you mean that you do not use ATS cued combinations as you dance? My understanding is that the person in the lead is choosing from a set of pre-designed combinations within the ATS vocabulary rather than selecting individual movements. Am I misunderstanding?

First let me say what I think you mean when you say combinations to see if we're on the same page: When I hear combinations, I'm thinking something more along the lines of short choreographies in which someone has instructed that a sequence of specific moves are to follow. If this is the case, this is not what we do.

What we do have in ATS is a list of moves, our vocabulary, which we can use, each individually, with their own set of cues. These individual moves can be danced in single counts of 1, or 2 counts, or 4 counts or in some cases 8 or more counts. It really depends on the step, each step has a different length in count that constitutes its cycle.

Some troupes might have favorite moves that they happen to combine often, but they are not necessarily pre-set combinations. We don't necessarily have purely pre-designed combinations. I will speak for our troupe that when we dance in lead position, we are dancing one move at a time. For example: Lets say I get up there in a 3/4 shimmy. After 8 counts, I decide to go into our Arc Turn which takes me another 8 counts. Then I decide to go into our Basic Egyptian step for another 8 counts, after which I forfeit my "turn" in lead by circling in the group and someone else takes lead.

While each move may be comprised of a few different movements of the body either working in conjunction or opposition with one another they are not usually combinations.

Some moves in our vocabulary are very short combinations (16-32 counts), but they don't make up a large chunk of our vocabulary. Some individual moves end up being specific combinations if a group is circled in and playing around with space and formation dynamics. Yes, we cue our movements, and the cues themselves are not a separate entity, they are a part of the move, a signal to the dancers behind you that something new is going to happen.

I hope I haven't confused you with any jargon, and take my explanations with a grain of salt. I've only been studying (very diligently!) for two years.

 

[Silverfyre]

Sorry for confusing you further, I'm having an off day in the brain department!

ana_bat explained the whole combinations thing very well so I wont even try to explain it myself

 

[ana_bat]

Another thing that might be confusing but still helpful:

ATS is now a trademarked term belonging to Carolena Nericcio. Meaning, that should someone claim that they are teaching ATS or performing/doing ATS, they should be referring to the specific format of Fat Chance Belly Dance that Ms. Nericcio created some 25 years ago.

I think its useful to point this out because not too long ago and for many years I imagine, there were plenty of people and troupes performing styles very different and individualized that didn't reflect the style or concept that FatChance has, but were none the less referring to what they were doing as ATS. Now a days people who do Tribal that happens to be improvised [Edit, I forgot to add]: that is not a sister studio, or a troupe that is not adhering to the format as created by Ms. Nericcio, but is still performed in a group, might refer to what they do as ITS (Improvised Tribal Style-i.e., Gypsy Caravan), SGI (Syncrozied Group Improv- ie, Blacksheep Belly Dance), or some other moniker I can't think of at the moment.

In ITS and SGI these troupes have really made Tribal their own. They might have core movements that come from ATS as Carolena made it, but have spun off to include a lot more personalized moves, or personalized concepts and can end up being very different. Hence people can come up with different rules or render for how to dance their dance. It's also possible that what you learned from workshops could have been different because it was ITS or SGI.
(Unless of course you learned from THE ATS source then I humbly stand corrected!)

On a side note if someone says they're ATS, ask them who they learned from, it can explain a lot about what they're doing.

Phew. Sorry. I'll stop giving you a headache!

 

[mahsati_janan]

Ah – part of my confusion is definitely vocabulary then. To me, a move is a single discrete movement like 1 hip circle. Doing more than one individual movement in a row or doing a repeating set of movements is a combination for me, so essentially doing 8 cts of hip drops, then turning to do it again is a combination. Also something like 3 hip drops, shimmy, 3 hip drops, shimmy would be a combo to me. Choreography can either be created as a set of combinations (strings of sets of movements) or as individual movements (each individual movement selected for that part of the music). If you perform a cue and the dancers know what to do for multiple counts after that and can perform it the same each time the cue is given, I would probably call it a combination.

Example of the way I use the terms movement vs. combination:
1) Movement examples:
a. Hip drop
b. Hip circle
c. Hip 8
d. Chest Lift

2) Combination examples:
a. (4 hip drops on left, 4 hip drops on right)
b. (2 small chest circles, 1 large chest circle, undulation down)


Ok, so if I have this right, sets of individual movements are not considered combinations for your group, so where I would say that a hip circle followed by a shimmy done to each of the directions is a combination, you would not necessarily consider it such, but would think of it as one single move regardless of direction changes or the individual movements within it. Is that right?

 

[mahsati_janan]

Another thing that might be confusing but still helpful:

ATS is now a trademarked term belonging to Carolena Nericcio. Meaning, that should someone claim that they are teaching ATS or performing/doing ATS, they should be referring to the specific format of Fat Chance Belly Dance that Ms. Nericcio created some 25 years ago.
[...]
In ITS and SGI these troupes have really made Tribal their own. They might have core movements that come from ATS as Carolena made it, but have spun off to include a lot more personalized moves, or personalized concepts and can end up being very different. Hence people can come up with different rules or render for how to dance their dance. It's also possible that what you learned from workshops could have been different because it was ITS or SGI.
(Unless of course you learned from THE ATS source then I humbly stand corrected!)

On a side note if someone says they're ATS, ask them who they learned from, it can explain a lot about what they're doing.

Phew. Sorry. I'll stop giving you a headache!

The workshops I have been in have all been by ATS sister studios except one, so I think it was generally official ATS. I know a lot of great ITS groups as well. I've seen ATS grow over almost 20 years, but this was the first time I had ever heard of it as not using combinations. I think it must be a difference in terminology.

 

[ana_bat]

Ok, so if I have this right, sets of individual movements are not considered combinations for your group, so where I would say that a hip circle followed by a shimmy done to each of the directions is a combination, you would not necessarily consider it such, but would think of it as one single move regardless of direction changes or the individual movements within it. Is that right?

Exactly this!

I know it gets messy :/
But yes this is the concept. If I do an "Arabic" (which is much like the camel walk), for 8 counts I might refer to this as a "Arabic for 8 counts" without acknowledging it as a "a combo of 4 Arabics, where each Arabic is 2 counts."

Sorry for the confusion!

 

[mahsati_janan]

Exactly this!

I know it gets messy :/
But yes this is the concept. If I do an "Arabic" (which is much like the camel walk), for 8 counts I might refer to this as a "Arabic for 8 counts" without acknowledging it as a "a combo of 4 Arabics, where each Arabic is 2 counts."

Sorry for the confusion!

Not at all! I appreciate the clarification. I thought I must have lost my mind for a moment there.

So back on topic, how would an ATS group handle music that changed tempos regularly or had odd timed rhythms? Most of the non-choreographed ATS I have seen has always been to very even music with few big changes. Also, how do you handle keeping within the phrasing of the music (such as a repeating melody)?

 

[ana_bat]

[...]how would an ATS group handle music that changed tempos regularly or had odd timed rhythms? Most of the non-choreographed ATS I have seen has always been to very even music with few big changes. Also, how do you handle keeping within the phrasing of the music (such as a repeating melody)?

Again, I speak only from my troupe experiences

If we are working with a piece of music that has some pretty noticeable tempo changes, we are going to listen to that song so much that we're humming it in our sleep. So one part is music memorization so that you anticipate the shift in tempo. Depending on whether or not a prop like baskets are involved, we may or may not choreograph a small section in the tempo change to keep things smooth. We usually resort to small choreography for tempo change if its a song using baskets. So generally speaking if we know a piece of music we're interested in performing to is versatile and changes often, we're going to talk about singals in the music so that we're prepaired for it, though unless we're going with a prop or its a special theatrically staged event, its business as usual.

Now with music that may feature rhythms our typical, continuous R-L-R-X, R-L-R-X, pattern can't handle, we'll talk about that before we go on stage, or in many cases, weeks before the performance. We'll practice which ever zill pattern fits the rhythm of the song the best and drill, drill, drill until we're comfortable. When the day of the performance comes, its again, business as usual with no choreography except for maybe how we enter the stage.

But with full honesty, there are times where perhaps the song's rhythm changes and we're still doing the R-L-R/R-L-R standard zill pattern you see in ATS, because we haven't choreographed or decided to follow each change in rhythm. Although sometimes we'll agree that we'll zill through a song in the ATS standard pattern, but every time we do an Egyptian step we'll switch to the pattern for Baladi if the song happens to have that rhythm already. We're a relatively new troupe as a whole, so we're not quite adventurous yet

 

[Silverfyre]

So back on topic, how would an ATS group handle music that changed tempos regularly or had odd timed rhythms? Most of the non-choreographed ATS I have seen has always been to very even music with few big changes.

There are certain rhythms we cannot dance to. We cannot dance fast to a 6/8 rhythm as our moves are all in counts of 2, 4 and 8 so we would end on a wrong foot every few measures. We can do a dramatic slow piece to a 6/8 however. Rhythms that work best for ATS are Fellahi, Malfuf, Ayoob, Karachi and Saaidi among others.

Tempo changes work well, it's is just a case of being very familiar with the music you are dancing to so that you know when the change is coming