Moon

Dear A'isha, I have a question. From what I've read in your posts so far and from a few of the articles on your website, I think you are a talented and well respected Egyptian style dancer, also well respected by native Egyptians. This probably means you can dance with the essence that makes Egyptian style Egyptian style. But I'm so curious how you've learned that, cause I think you're American? (sorry if I'm wrong, and sorry you probably explained this before but I can't really remember) I wonder, did you learn the Egyptian essence from Egyptian teachers, or from living with them? Is it also possible to learn it from a non-Egyptian teacher that teaches Egyptian style?
Sorry if I misunderstood you, but sometimes I have the idea you think only Egyptians will fully understand the Egyptian essence (however foreigners can learn and come close, ofcourse) so I wonder, do you consider yourself as someone who fully understands the essence? If so, did you learn it at dance lessons or in another way?

Shanazel

Dear A'isha,

Was my explanation of why I think what I do is belly dance specific enough? I was a little confused when you asked for specifics in one post, then in the last post said we can only talk about dance in generalities.

This is the point I've been trying to make all along. It is possible to incorporate the essence of middle eastern dance into AmCab (for example) and create a hybrid that is still belly dance. Belly dance can be so completely fused with another dance form or fantasy that it is no longer recognizable as one thing or the other, and at that point, the essence of belly dance is submerged in the essence of the fusion. For me (and I know people will disagree and that is fine), what is called Goth belly dance is so deep into the Goth experience that the essence is pure Goth expressed with movements that this particular fusion has in common with belly dance. And as you've said before, movement does not form the soul of a dance, essence does. If I got the honor of naming this Goth fusion, I'd call it Goth Oriental, but nobody asked me. Alas.

Aisha Azar

Dear Moon,
I am not Egyptian, but I think, having begun my dance classes by learning the dance from Arabs, my perspective is different than many westerners. The first thing I understood about the dance. long before I got the movement was that "Arabness", I guess you could say, is an important element in Egyptian bellyd ance. I have also studied many other dances, but this is the dance at which I excell, for whatever reason. I have gone on to study with many of the American great Egyptian dancers, a few Europeans, and with some of the Egyptians and also I have learned the dance from my Egyptian friends. But just as important as the movements has been the feeling and spirit of the dance.
I believe that sometimes it is possible for a person outside one culture to become really attuned to another culture. I also believe that belly dance is just like ballet or any other art form. For example, most people who study Russian ballet will not become expert Russian ballerinas, and nobody questions that, but in belly dance, we make the assumption that anyone can belly dance. ( This, I think is one of the reasons why we got so little respect outlide our own dance genre.) There will be some people, however, who can somehow absorb the thing that makes Russian ballet Russian, even if they are not Russian themselves. There are other people who will not become Russian ballerians, but will go on to utilize ballet techniues in some other wonderful dance form.
I have been told that I have that "Egyptian" quality. Personally, though I am considered an ""expert" by many who have seen me dance or taken classes from me, I feel that it is a thing that I will have to work toward perfecting for the rest of my dance life. I want to move as well as Sohair and Randa and emote like Mouna!!

Dear Shanazel,
I thought your explanation was quite good,and thank you!
Where do you draw the line as to what is "belly dance" and what is not? What I see is that everyone seems to draw their own line in this debate. My line offends the most people, but that does not mean it has no validity or is any different from the lines that the rest of the dancers draw. Sharon sees things that she does not think are Tribal. My line is drawn along ethnic lines. You have a line that you are drawing, too, but I am not clear as to where it is. I have even heard of people saying that such and such is "not Gothic". I wonder where each of the people who are in this particular debate draw their own lines.

I think that "essence" is a cultural overall effect and is not incorporated by the smallness or bigness, or other things that involve movement. Movement is just one of the ways in which it is manifested. I am asking this question with all due respect, because I believe that you can and do see the difference. When you watch a video of Jillina and Mouna Said back to back, do you not sense a real and deep difference in what they are doing that goes beyond movement? For me, in order for something to be "belly dance' it must be inside that essence, because movement is not really in the end what dance is about. Movement is only a small part of the dance. It is one tool for the oeverall expression and meaning of the wholistic dance.This concept,I think, is what is being lost in America, at least. I can not speak for other countries.

Regards,
A'isha

Moon

Thanks for explaining A'isha

Aisha Azar

Dear Moon,
You are welcome.
Regards,
A'isha

Salome

Whooo it was getting hot in here! Thanks Sharon for bringing the balance back.

Aisha had asked earlier something to the effect of what makes a person think the style they do is Belly dance/Oriental dance...

At one point I did label what I was doing under the umbrella term, Belly dance. And then I left Belly dance behind in favor of Oriental dance, for reasons I've already talked about... But my journey in labeling what I was doing didn't end there

My costuming is Oriental dance costuming. My music is Turkish and Arab Oriental dance music. My movement repertoire is the fundamental movement groups of Oriental dance. I share the same purpose as the authentic Oriental dance styles do. However I do draw on Amarabic music, the expression of the fundamental movements often differs from the authentic styles and the essence is definitely colored by my western upbringing, aesthetics and sense of performance. In my opinion I am doing an American style of Oriental dance. The east and west are both present and in my mind using the label American style Oriental dance provides clarity. Or at least begins by building a path of clarity for those not versed…

I do use these terms in my advertising and in discussion with the general public. Because my picture in costume accompanies printed advertising the general public is able to put the picture and label (that they've likely not heard before) together. Actually I just started my classes and my class posters advertised "Oriental dance taught in the American style..." and I have had a wonderful turn out, especially for my fundamentals class where 99% are first timers. When I’m in person obviously I have the chance to explain what that means etc.

Shanazel

Ooh, I hate it when I write something brilliant that gets lost in cyberspace. Nothing else lives up to the memory of those first words, but I guess this is God's way of telling me to keep it shorter. So here I go again:

A'isha, I am not very good at drawing lines. I see too many shades of grey to make anything as nice and crips as a line. If when I am watching a dance, my first thought is, "Oh, Goth," or "Oh, ballet," or "What the hell is that?", then I don't call what I am watching bellydance. If I think, "Ah, belly dance," then I am willing to give the matter due consideration, even if the dance combines elements that are not, shall we say, classic belly dance.
Jillina and Mouna: Jillina strikes me as being polished, glitzed, and produced for the masses: every theatre goer's fantasy of a belly dancer. Mouna strikes me as sublime in a way that I think of as earthy. I react to Mouna with my heart. I react to Jillina with my intellect.

Please, Jillina fans, don't take me to task- I am not bashing her. These are my reactions to two very different dancers who I have only seen on film, and I am not trying to convince anyone to accept my point of view.

Hi, Salome. Where have you been?

Aisha Azar

Dear Shanazel,
When you draw your line and say, this or that is or is not belly dance, what do you base it on other than just your immediate response? What criteria are or are not present in what you see as bellydance and what you see as not belly dance?
This is a quesrion I would like to post to all members of this debate. I am thinking of doing a paper on this subejct and would like to do something like
" A comparison among dancers of different styles and how they define what is belly dance", or some such title. (This is just an acorn of an idea at present, but I think it wouldmake an interesting paper.)

I see the same things as you when I watch Jillina and Mouna, but I also see such a difference in their total approach to the dance and music that one is apples and one is oranges to me. They are not doing dances that even seem related when I watch them. I have seen them both in person as well as on video, and that may make some difference... I don't know.

Again, thanks for responding. Your answers are always well thought out.


Dear Salome,
Hello and thanks for your response on this, too. If you are interested in answering the above questions, I would love it. If people feel better answering me privately for any reason, that is accpetable, though I might want to publish your name if I write a paper. ( I hate the "unnamed sourced" thing)
As you well know, I completely respect not only your dance, but your vision and cultural savvy in clearly labeling your dance form! ( And I love the name you gave it and have begun using it to describe American dance!)

Regards,
A'isha

Shanazel

Dear A'isha,

I don't see a crisp, firm line. I see shades, and tints and tones. I don't perceive dance or the world at large in a precise, analytical way: this much vertical movement plus this much inner emotion minus this deviation in music equals this degree of belly danceness. You constantly urge all of us on to more precise, exacting explanations of the criteria that spell belly dance to us. This is an interesting challenge to a point, but it seems no matter how clearly I express myself, I am not going to reach the mathematical precision that you are seeking.

However, a sincere question deserves consideration, so give me a couple of days to think about it. The prospect of this exercise in logic brings to mind a line I read in the Georgia O'Keefe Museum in Santa Fe: Nothing is less real than realism... details are confusing... it is only by selection, by elimination, by emphasis that we get at the real meaning of things.

I'm not sure I can get to the real meaning of dance by picking it apart, but for you, my dear, I will try.

Aisha Azar

Dear Shanazel,
I do not really see a black and white line, either, but I have tried to define for myself and for others what it is about the dance that makes me feel the way I do and that makes the dance what it is. I agree that dance is not something that is an exact science, but that like anything else, there are guidelines that make certain things what they are. It's sort of like skating ( about which I know practically nothing except that I think its beautiful). One of my students was a professional skater and she did not like Surya Bonalee from France, who I thought was strong and wonderful. She said that what I was admiring about Surya was not her skating, but her gymnastic ability, and her parlor tricks, which is not really what skating is all about. I then compared her to Kristy Yamaguchi and a couple of the Russian skaters, and I began to see her point. I began to see that Surya had something these women did not have, and
they in turn had things that she did not as a skater, because in actuality though they were all skating, they were really not doing the same thing at the heart of the it, even though they were all wearing skates. (BTW, the woman who told me this is Black, so it was not a matter of racial issues.)

I don't think I am seeking mathematical precision. I do want to know what it is that leads people to think what they believe about belly dance. For some reason, I have mostly met with resistance when I ask people about this. I think especially if we teach the dance, we need to be able to define it for our studnets on the terms upon which we teach it. I LOVE the O'Keefe analogy and love her as an artist. She saw into the sexual/spiritual aspects of flowers and drew out their vibrancy and their soul as well as defining them clearly by shape and movement. She made people really LOOK at flwoers, and many were of course, appalled. Her flowers, in spite of what she said, are the reality of flowers. She got there by studying flowers minutely and by coming to specific understandings about them, and her own realtionship to them, I would say. She also understood that they were all flowers, but that each one had its own specific flower definition that made it what is was. I think this shows in her paintings and I hope it shows in my work that I have that same intimate understanding of what I am doing! ( My big question about O'Keefe is what in hell did she ever see in Steiglitz???)

I eagerly await your reply and hope that you will let me copy it out of here and perhaps use it in an article about this diverse image of the dance.

Regards,
A'isha