Shanazel

What did O'Keefe see in Steiglitz? He had influence and a well-known art gallery, and she was a struggling female artist who was tired of teaching. How's that for cynical? I would've dumped his sorry bottom after he showed the nude pictures without permission.

Okay, if you are willing to accept my shades and tints of dance, I'll go for it. You flatter me by seeking my opinion- I know I am not now and have never been in your class as a dancer or teacher.

I'm getting ready for the trial from hell right now, and it is swallowing all my time, so I take belly dance forum breaks to keep myself sane. (Lord, what kind of masochist works for attorneys?) I'll use some breaks to think about and try to define essence.

Aisha Azar

Dear Shanazel,
I am looking forward to your replies and I hope you survive court! Aere you a lawyer or paralegal or judge or jury member, gaurdian ad litum, etc?
Regards,
A'isha

Salome

For me the following elements need to be present in order to fall within the boundaries of what I define as Oriental dance:

*movement - the movement used should be the fundamental movement groups of Oriental dance. The odd/infrequent arabesque, flamenco turn, jazz kick etc. OK. But once the fundamental movement groups get a heavy handed mix of posturing and movements from one or many other genre's it has moved to far from base camp.

*movement expression - the movements should be expressed in accordance with the music, the purpose, and the essence. While there is a high level of personal freedom in how you express the movements in response to the music I still think there are some parameters. Maybe a bad example, but for example if you were to roll across the floor, technically you are creating a circle and circles are one of the fundamental movement groups. But expressing a circular movement in this way isn't particularly true to the essence of the dance in any of it's manifestations. It's moving into an area of free expressionism. Slides and lifts, also fundamental movement groups, are often used percussively and rightly so. However when the entirety of the movement expression is based on a technique of percussive, sharp, pop's and locks the dancer is taking the expression into a different arena than that of Oriental dance.

*purpose - the dancer should be giving the music a physical body, and responding to it emotionally, in her/his unique way as it filters through her/him. People who get on stage and are vulgar, or who steam roll over the music, or who don't give of themselves really fall short of the purpose, what they are up there to do. An artist who put's him/herself on stage to perform should have something to say, something to share and in Oriental dance I see that as the music coming through her/him physically and bringing forth her heart and soul in the process.

*essence - the dancer should be true to the spirit of this dance in one of its manifestations. The Lebanese style dancer should embody the spirit of the dance as it is done in Lebanon, same for Turkish and Egyptian style. I think the American style dancer has the same duty. We have a fairly long history of Oriental dance performance in this country and there is an essence to this style too.

*music should be Arab, Turkish or a true interpretation of either/or. Alternative music changes everything in my eyes. Because so much of all these points are directly related to the music. The fundamental movements are 'designed' to speak the physical language of Arab and Turkish music. As is the expression, the purpose, the essence... This is one point that I don't see a lot of wiggle room in.

*costuming should be Oriental dance costuming. I don't have a 'must be a glittery two piece' agenda. There is a massive amount of room for personal tastes and fashion. But for me it needs to fall somewhere in the field of Oriental dance costuming. No feather headdresses, choli's, sari's etc.

If someone asked me this question 15 years ago I probably would have said - costume and movement make it Oriental dance. But those intangible qualities have revealed themselves as being just as important criteria, to me, as the physical ones.

Aisha Azar

Dear Salome,
If I do an article, can I use your post and perhaps ask you a few more questions in the form of interview? I think this is a good example of what I am looking for.

If I do an article, Toha of the new Habibi emailed me, expressing interest in having me submit works a couple of months ago and it would probably be submitted to her first. I may also want some photos of some of the people who are part of the interview.

I am still forming this concept and am not sure exaclty where it will lead, other than I am looking for people who have their understanding of belly dance and exactly what it is and is not, and where they draw lines, how and why. Right now I am looking at the article as a sort of comparison and contrast as to what people think the dance is and is not.
I may eventually do something use different dancers' point of view and people off the street or something like that.

I am considering this as disclosure for anyone else here who might be interested in contributing to the article, though I may not be able to use all replies, depending on how many people respond here and in other places.

Also, should this particular post and Salome's and Shanazel's stay here or be moved to someplace else under something like "What belly dance is or isn't: Your opinion"? I think we are still pretty muchh on the mark but I am not sure what other contributors here might think since we are sort of wandering away from Goth....

Regards,
A'isha

Obsidia

For me personally, Salome has hit the nail on the head as to ALL genres of bellydance. You merely swap the style of dance/costuming/music for other styles. (Although for true ATS, you'd have to add a category regarding the pure improvisation).

Gothic Bellydancers "should" dance by the same guidelines, whether they are Cabaret or Tribal trained. (I say SHOULD because it's my personal opinion).

I dance by these guidelines..And whether a set I perform in inspired by music, costuming, history etc, i reamin steadfast to keeping my performances BELLYDANCE while still being Gothic.

You have your way. I have my way. As for the right way, the correct way, and the only way, it does not exist. ~ Friedrich Nietzsche

The shoe that fits one person pinches another; there is no recipe for living that suits all cases. ~ Carl Gustav Jung

Shanazel

Certified Legal Assistant, which is profession-speak for paralegal who has taken the paralegal equivalent of the bar exam, two days of exams that I hope never to have to repeat. :p

Aisha Azar

Dear Obsidia,
If you are interested, I would like to have your thougthts included if I do the article. In that case, you say that Goth should follow certain guidlines in order for it to be Goth. What are those guidelines? At what point would you say something is no longer Goth? At what point would dance no longer be belly dance, either from your personal point of view or from a generally Gothic point of view? How does Gothic Industrial dance vary from Goth dance, and are there other off-shoots from Goth that we should be aware of? What about Gothic culture and belly dance make them amenable to fusing?

Dear Shanazel,
Have a good "Day in Court". Personally, I think assistants in many fields are a lot like nurses. They do a whole bunch of the work so someone else can get the glory!! My husband's cardiologist's physician's assistant is the smartest man in the whole office, nearly as I can tell.

Dear Salome,
In you opinion, does American Oriental mean the same as "belly dance", or is there a difference?

Regards,
A'isha

Obsidia

A'isha

I'd be happy to give you my view...Give me a few days to sort out my thoughts and I'll get back to you.

(Soccer season is killing me!)

Namaste

Aisha Azar

Dear Obsidia,
Thank you. I think your part of the interview will add a lot to the article.
Regards,
A'isha

Aziyade

can we spin this off into a new thread? It's a really good topic that will get lost in the aftermath of the "goth wars" so to speak.