Aziyade

This is something I've wondered about for some time. I did not study with Jamila in the 70s, so I don't know what was taught, but I've heard from a lot of people that it was made-up, and Suhaila said they got their costuming ideas from National Geographic magazines. BUT ...

Now, I've been watching Jamila's Archive Series of videos, and reading her manual on Danse Orientale. Here's the thing. I know the videos were shot in the 1980's and maybe things had changed by then, but A LOT of what I'm seeing in those videos and in her book is just STRAIGHT out of Egypt.

Shareen did say that the Egyptian style and dancers came over in the 80's, along with their music, so maybe these videos are revisions of what Jamila taught, I don't know.

Anyway, most of the steps in her book I've seen Fifi Abdo or Nagwa Fouad do in concert footage. But for certain exceptions like the "Turkish Back Walk" and all the veil stuff in the book, most of the content is darn near exactly the same things Fifi does in her more "Bint al Balad" performances.
I can get specific if you want, just let me go home and get my notes. One thing that stands out is the figure 8 motion where the hip goes from back to front and pulls in to the body -- Raqia teaches this on her technique videos. From the videos and books available at the time, nobody else was teaching the figure 8 this way.

Even when she wasn't DEAD on with what she was teaching it was really quite close, and the mistakes made were logical. I contrast this with what I personally learned of Am Cab and what people like Atea taught on their videos.

(It's still my belief that the whole horizontal hip twist "shimmy" that everyone did in the 70's is NOT really a nod to Tunisian dance, but is instead a mistaken understanding of the so-called "Egyptian shimmy" which is more horizontal in feel and travels up the body. You get a similar effect (but not the same) when you do Atea's twisty shimmy really fast.)

Anyway, Jamila's whole counterclockwise pivot series is Fifi all the way. And it's also what I see the Arab university students doing as their social dance. It's not Sharqi -- maybe it's beledi?

BUT, like I said, the videos and book are from the 80s so maybe she learned better along the way? Or maybe she taught a lot of extraneous stuff that wasn't included in the video series. Either way, I haven't really been able to figure out exactly what the issue was with Jamila's teachings. It's not Sharqi; it's much more what I would consider "folkloric" or beledi. But if it walks like a Fifi and looks like a Fifi ...

???

Aziyade

Norma,

I get this from Shareen el Safy, who was living and working in Egypt during the late 80s or 90s. (She said she went to Egypt in 1985), but I'm not sure if she stayed there all along.)

Shareen credits American Cabaret style as being a result of natural evolution on the part of American dancers. During the 60s and 70s you had immigrants dancing in the Arab clubs in America (and playing their own blend of music, too, which we sometimes call AmArabic). For the most part these dancers and musicians were Syrian, Lebanese, Turkish, Armenian, Greek, and to some degree Egyptian, but from what I understand, actually more of them came over later.

The dancers each brought their own thing to the table. American dancers copied it and learned it.

But then for a period of about a decade, there were not nearly as many green cards issued to foreigners, and so Americans were left without a significant source of primary information. So without direct influence from natives, the style of dance the Americans were doing gradually took on a life of its own and changed in format and content to something we now recognize as American Cabaret.

It was an amalgamation, but not one that was specifically and deliberately thrown together. I tend to credit the music for creating such an amalgamation. In that period, you find Greek folk tunes fiddled with, and Turkish lyrics added. Or Armenian music with Arabic lyrics. Or old Lebanese tunes with new Lebanese lyrics added. Or Syrian wedding songs blended with jazz. The musicians were jamming and having fun. Across the globe, Egyptian composers were playing around too, experimenting with American and Afro-Cuban rhythms and music. Mohammed Abdel Wahab composed a piece based on a hoe-down!

I would argue American Cabaret dance grew out of that Am-Arabic music, and the following void of significant input from the immigrant dancers. BUT, I can't back that up since I have VERY few recordings from the 70's and nothing from the 50s and 60s. However, in talking with Chris Kalogerson, who played with some of the "Greats" in the 60s and 70s, he confirmed some of what I had suspected and added that since the audience was mixed culturally, the dancer would be expected to give a little nod to the different cultures, either through the music or some signature folk step.

Was that "belly dance" ? Depends on your definition, I s'pose.

I have a simple litmus test, personally.
I dance for Arab college students, and some Egyptian and Lebanese teachers here. If they recognize it and say "You're bellydancing!" then I am.

If they look at me funny, then I'm just dancing.

Gabi

I decided to try AGAIN fresh and be friends - that obviously didn't work

You are not the only one who can get a lot nastier but chooses not to.

I like people and I wanted to try to be friends with you. Unless I hear something from you to make me believe you have any interest in that (and I extend that sincerely) I'm not going to try anymore.

Aisha Azar

Dear Sharon,
Let me go about this another way. If we walk out into the street and ask the average person out there where belly dance comes from, how many will say it is a product of the West? I am talking about people who have no connection whatsoever ot dancers, musicians etc. I say that since the average person believes that belly dance is a product of the Middle East, whether or not that is rooted in harem fantasy or otherwise, it is still equated with the Middle East in the mind of the average person.
I am hoping you will elaborate on why the women that you saw dancing were not Tribal dancers, from one of your other posts here. I am not really sure about what it is exactly that makes one dance Tribal and another not. ( I am much better at saying why one dance is Lebanese and another is Turkish!) In fact, much of Goth work that I have seen on video seems influenced heavily by tribal on some level. I could be wrong here.

Dear Aziyade,
I started dancing in 1974 and my instructor was much at odds with Jamila. Jodette taught Egyptian belly dance at that thime and had been doing so for some time, but yes, I think that we began to get most of our instruction in Egyptian dance in the late 70s early 80s. Jamila and Jodette hated each other but I got some really great classes from her. People often try to besmirch her, but she was very much like Tahia Carioca in her styling. Much of what was being taught in the 80s was very much western and jazz infused, as in what Suhaila was teaching as Egyptian at the time. It was very difficult to find dance instructors who were teaching the ethnic dance at all, but you could sometimes find really good people who would teach you at parties and things like that, ( which is pretty much how I learned ALL of my Khaliji except for some classes with Hallah Moustafa.)
I spent a lot of time in the clubs in Portland, Oregon ( Athens West, Grecian Gardens, for two) and in Seattle during the 1970s and 80s. There was even a big difference between these two areas because all the clubs in Portland were Greek and some of the clubs in Seattle were Arab (Cedars of Lebanon was a popular hang-out, and then in the 80s there was George's which went from being a sleepy Greek club to a very busy Arab club, and finally was busted for trafficking in stolen goods.)My personal feeling is also that American Oriental, sometimes called American Cabaret, or American belly dance, did grow out of the combination of musicians and western dancers creating something new in a new environment. There was a time whan I would have called this "American belly dance, but now I have seen this as an error on my part, and on the part of my contemporaries, because of where it has led. Hindsight and all that.
If you are interested in hearing how the music of Arab Americans sounded in the first half of the 20th century, there is a CD out called "The Music of Arab Americans: a Retrospective Collection" It is put out by Rounder and the ISBN number is 11661-1122-2. The music dates from 1916 to the early 1950s. Ameriba came a little bit later.
Re Jamila- Most of the footage that I have seen of Jamila and Bal Anat does not reflect Middle Eastern dance, nor when I saw them in person did it, but at the time I did not know that. I am not sure how Bobby Farrah or Morocco felt about her work, but in general the Eastern side of the States was more into authentically trying to emulate the ethnic dances, while many dancers in the Western were not. There were exceptions, such as Diane Weber doing an incredible Beledi style. I think it is important to remember that movement is only part of the dance and while Jamila did do a lot of basic movement from the Middle East... it somehow was just not Middle Eastern according to Aziz who studied with her for years. Shelly Muzzy (Yasmilah from Bou Saada)) still does what is now often referred to as "Jamila Old Style", and it is a lovely Western style of dance. I last saw her perfrom about 5-6 years ago. She is the most charming person and dancer. One of the dance companies I belonged to early on once sponsored Yasmilah, who knows tons of authentic ethnic dance as well.
If I remember correctly, Shareen danced in Egypt for two years. Nagwa Fouad helped her to get her licence and she was the opening act for Sohair Zaki for some time. I took my first workshops with her about almost 20 years ago and I study with her when the opportuntiy arises because she is the WOMAN!!


Dear Gabi,
Let's see, first you run me down all over the place, then you tell me you are not sure where we disagree. Yeah, great try at the friendship thing. I would like to see something a little more sincere from YOU.
Whatever.

I THINK I responded to everyone. If not, please tell me and I will try!

Regards,
A'isha

Gabi

If you think that was running you down, well, that is pathetic. You have misconstrued every blasted thing I've said and you have done it deliberately -you whine up a storm about how people are picking on you and all I see is YOU doing the running down and frankly, outside of initial annoyance I don't see where anyone cares about you so much that they would even try to "run you down" - you may think you are that impressive but trust me on this one - many others do not. My attempt was sincere and I think all but a total idiot can see that.

I'm done with you

Aisha Azar

Gabi,
Glad to hear it. At least the people who have been debating with me for the most part know what they are debating about, and ARE sure what they are disagreeing with. You just did it to go along with the crowd, nearly as I can tell. At least you could think about what you are disasgreeing with before doing so. Thank God you are done with me. becasue If there is anythying that's pathetic, it is not knowing what you are arguing about, but doing so anyway. And now, Princess, I am done with YOU.
A'isha

TribalDancer

Hello my dear dancers,

As moderator of this forum (and at present, only this thread! HAHA!), I don't want to have to get all Big Brother on you guys and start deleting inappropriate posts.

If you want to get personal and scrap at one another personally, that is what private messaging is for.

If you want to argue the topic at hand, then I encourage you to continue to address the SUBJECT MATTER, and not the person posting.

We are all really passionate about our points of view, and sometimes we feel personally attacked when something so dear to our hearts is questioned. But try to remember to confine your commentary to the subject, and not allow yourself to be drawn into a personal grudge match.

*sending good juju out there*

Aisha Azar

Dear Sharon,
Thank you for the reminder and I apologize to the group for not behaving very well today. I will be a better person tomorrow if I possibly can.
Regards,
A'isha

Gabi

That is such good advice. Thank you. Your juju apparently got to me anyway .

Aisha Azar

Dear Shanazel,
I think I forgot to address your latest post to me yesterday!
We all can speak only in generalities when we are discussing dance. There is always the exception to the rule. Randa looks to have studied ballet and incorporated things from it into her dancer ( while still reatianing the ethnic erssence). There is the large Basic Egyptian movement of Sohair Zaki and small movement of some western dancers. One of the BDSS comes to mind, but I can't think of her name...possibly Sonia???
I have never seen you dance, so any comment is purely surmise on my part. Perhaps from your description above you might be more Middle Eastern than you think in you dance style. It is not that the ethnic dancers do not have some qualities that are also present in western dance, or vice verse, but that the general approach to the music, the movement, the feeling has specific ethnic elements. They are elusive, as you know and are difficult to translate into words. Dance is a really physical and auditory and visual experience and is often very difficult to understand unless those elements are present for explanation, I think.
Regards,
A'isha