Shanazel

The question wasn't directed to me (this time) but try this for an answer:

Half the time, I cannot understand what Demelza and Sara are saying, but they do indeed speak English. The English spoken by my Australian friend Louise is not what you hear in Alabama, and English expressions you hear in the Arkansas Ozarks are not common in Wyoming. The Scots have a different essence than the Irish, and no one can really understand the folks from Boston, yet we accept that we all speak some variation of English. Now, the folks in England might rise up and claim only their language is properly called English, because only they endow it with the essence of Englishness, but they are likely to get an argument from a good portion of the rest of the Western Hemisphere.

There are differences in phrasing and essence between Raks Sharki, Lebanese, Turkish, AmericanCab/American Oriental, etc., but they all fall under the heading of belly dance in the same way that Aunt Sister's Carolina drawl and Fiona's Scottish burr fall under the heading of English.

I understand and appreciate your campaign for what you believe is truth in labeling, A'isha, and I've given it a lot of thought over the year and a half I've been part of the forum. I still come to the conclusion that the term belly dance extends to more than just the dance as it is done in Egypt or Syria or Lebanon. Label those particular dances by their middle eastern names, such as Raks Sharki, etc., and both the name and the essence one wishes to convey will be clear. Use the English term belly dance, and it grows like a family tree with many branches.

I also wonder: when does a group or a custom or a style of dance cease to be derivative and become ethnic itself?

Bring up my horse, Sancho! I see another windmill.

Gabi

I really liked that analogy - especially since I see all forms of dance as a language to express music (mostly) too. Little exception for some dances I've seen done in total silence or to something really esoteric that were nevertheless breathtaking.

The phone book comment was a joke but it does illustrate just what would be involved in trying to change it all. You'd first have to get the general public to be familiar with belly dancing and then with the different forms of belly dancing and THEN *gasp* the forms that are from belly dancing, including belly dancing moves but not totally belly dancing :eek:

Sure, I think we all understand when we take something seriously and it gets used in a form that we don't like it might be upsetting. I just don't think it's practical to try to first find labels that are acceptable to enough people and then get the general public to actually get it.

I think most dancers just want to dance and don't care that much how it would be labelled precisely; although it's certainly not going to bother me if the "AAGang, tm" succeeds *snork, tm*

Obsidia

thank you...

This is how I view bellydance...A giant family tree, which these different "offshoots" of Middle Eastern Dance as the branches of the SAME tree...

It's just as I view classical ballet (which I studied for 12 years, and holy cow, the bellydance world has NOTHING on the drama that exists in the Ballet world!!!!)

Personally, Jehan's segment on the Gothic DVD is so far removed from anything I personally do, if we were to do our sets on the same stage-people would be confused as to WHO was performing Gothic BellyDance!!!

I agree with everything Jeffrey has said about why Jehan did the piece she did and I respect that. Her piece on the DVD is not a true reflection of Gothic BD as a whole, so please don't judge an entire type of bellydance on one video clip you've seen.

I probably would have QUIT dancing a LONG time ago had I based my decisions on a single performance!

I know there are people who will never believe there is room for bellydancers such as myself to be allowed the moniker of "bellydancer". Do I agree with that? Never.

However, knowing that I can't alter anyone's views but my own, I'll continue to perform bellydance in MY way and be darkly joyous doing so.

As Friedrich Nietzsche said: ~You have your way. I have my way. As for the right way, the correct way, and the only way, it does not exist.~

Aisha Azar

Dear Gabi and Shanazel,

And if we were just talking about just dancers here, I might agree, but belly dance as terminology has meaning outside the community.
The problem with the analogy is that the general public thinks that when you say "belly dance" you mean raqs sharghi, though they do not know the Arabic name. As for the general public not accepting all the labels, why then, do you think they understand Raqs Sharghi, because they do not until it is explained that this is the name of belly dance in Arabic. ON the practicality level, what is practical about dance anyway? And saying "it's not practical" does not really have much to do with the dance and its preservation or definition. On the other hand, if you say "belly dance", they already know the meaning of that. It gets really frustrating that no one wants to understand that, it is not just about what I think. It is about what the general public thinks, and they believe that this is a dance from the Middle East, or their concept of it. They can be educated from there, which I do at every show. I have a very good reason for believeing the way that I do since the public is my audience and they believe that when they see belly dance, they are seeing a dance from the Middle East, whether or not they can oinpiint exactly where that is. if what a dancer is doing is NOT from the Middle East, the public is then even more confused than ever about the dance form.

Re the English analogy, there is at some point, a place where the language takes on its own cultural qualities, even though some of the words might be the same. I am from New England. We say something is wicked when we mean it is exceptionally good. We also say someone is ugly to mean they have a bad personality. Yes, the words are familiar, but they have taken on a different meaning and essence from culture ot culture, completely changing their meaning. When my hsuband from Southern California saus the word "Bitchen:, he does not mean someone is complaining, but that something is totally cool, which means something else too. I, for one, do not understand all of the words when I read some posts between Demelza and Sara. I do not believe that they are speaking the same language I speak at all, because their cultural meaning changes it all from the English that I speak into a whole other language. We have some words in common, but we do not necessarily understand the essence of the cultural speech. This is like belly dance, in which some movement in common is just one small aspect of what makes a dance. It is only a tiny part of the story, and without those cultural aspects, their language would not be what it is. In other words, we may be using a lot of the same words, but I don't thingk that we are speaking the same language!

Re the tree analogy: When one adds foreign DNA to a tree, what happens? Either the tree dies or it changes into something else. It is no longer what it originally was. It mutates into something else, though it may have some of the same traits as the original plant.

As this applies to dance, we may be using some of the same movements, but so do many other dances that are not related to belly dance. Movement is movement, but essence and spirit is what makes the dance what is is. We may all be using movement, but that does not mean we are doing the same dance.
It also does not mean that one form is in any way less valuable, only that it loses its orignal meaning when it innovates beyond certain cultural boundaries.

If anyone askes me, I can point to some very specific things that make Egyptian belly dance "belly dance". I keep waiting and hoping that someone will offer me an explanation of what they believe it is that makes specific off-shoots "belly dance".
Regards,
A'isha

Gabi

I'm thinking

I would very much like for you to point the specifics please. I can't really do the reverse because I'm not sure where exactly we disagree except that I think it's expecting too much to have everthing perfectly labelled. I'm not talking hoochie mamma stuff vs. good dance - I mean those people who are excellent bonafide tribal, cabaret, fusion, et al, you get the pic, vs. real Egyptian Belly Dance. I think most of us can see the difference easily enough and I do get what you are saying about the Egyptian Belly Dance representing the cultural aspect, as in this is original/authentic Middle Eastern Dance and this is not.

Most of the restaurants that have Belly Dancers have offshoot BellyDance(or not*snork*); how would you get them, for example, to advertise exactly what kind of dancers they have and still let the average public, who doesn't know diddly except that they want to see, oh, you know, something cabaret like probably, know what they'll be seeing.

And then there are the friendly festivals that are always called Belly Dance Festivals but they have all those off shoots and actually often very few of the Egyptian style - yet they are trying to get people to come, a lot of whom have some idea what they are going to if you say Belly Dance and wouldn't have a clue if you said Tribal or Gothic, or whatever.

I do realize that this is exactly the kind of thing that bugs you (I think) but how do you go about attracting a market for the dancers without using the word Belly Dance.

Anyway, it's late and I am still thinking .....

Jeffrey

Dear A'isha,
All of these different forms and off-shoots are "bellydance" there is no question about that and it needs not be defended. It is your interpretation that needs defending because it is you that is using the term outside of the definition and common practice of the word. As has been stated on this and other threads in this forum, nobody is claiming that the term "bellydance" is used to define specifically authentic, historic, or folkloric Middle-Eastern Dance that is indigenous to only those that practice it and have practiced it in the area of Asia Minor. Bellydance is a "generic" term that is applied to types of dance that involves movements and perhaps even some of the "trappings" and possibly some of the music that are evocative of the dance that you describe and certainly includes the dance that you describe. It is this usage of the word and term that you have difficulty with, but nobody else in the world (or certainly not the vaste majority) has any difficulty with. Exactly what Arabic, Turkish, Pharsee or Greek word does the term "bellydance" find its origins in? I believe that it is an English word that was first used to describe a general type of dance. It is NOT being used to describe specifdically "Raqs Sharki" or Eastern Mediterranean folkloric or cabaret dancing, but includes ALL of them under a general descrpition.
This is how the term is used, like Classical Music (seldom used to describe music from the actual "Classical" period but to describe music played on traditional acoustic instruments in a concert hall or chamber and can include Baroque music like Bach or Romantic music like Brahms or Neo-Classical music like Prokofiev) or Jazz ( encompassing all of the different forms from Dixie-land to Swing to BeBop to Hard Bop to Acid Jazz and Fusion) or Rock and Roll ( Doowop, Rockabilly, Hard Rock, Heavy Metal, Progressive Rock, etc.). We usually have terms that are used to loosely define types of art and sciences that the majority of the world finds have a similar thread running through it. You may not agree with how these terms are used, but you cannot take a word that is in common usage, redefine it in your own way and apply personal standards to it and then demand that everyone else justify their use of the word because it doesn't match your standards. Bellydance is a word like that.
-Jeffrey

Aisha Azar

Dear Jeffrey,
I am under no more obligation to defend my points than anyone else, first of all. I do so because I feel that if I make a point, then I should be able to stand up for it; that is what debate is all about. If you don't want to defend your point, what are you doing here? Your point needs just as much defense as mine, perhaps more. Whether you like it or not, you need to justify your points to me, and to the members of the forum also. You never do so, however, you just foist off responsbility on me and I am tired of your nonsense, and yes, this is actually an offensive on my part for a change. If you want to debate, start showing some real evidence. By that I mean citations, actual quotes from scholars on the subject, REAL evidence, not just your opinion. I have done so every time you have asked me, but you have never reciprocated, and you usually igonre my evidence. It IS much easier to just act like I have to prove myself and you don't. ( There now, can't you jsut sit back and call me sarcastic, arrogant, etc?)
You like to pretend something is ubiquitous when it is not, and you can take all the offense you want at my "Tone". I find that it is ONLY among western dancers that the term "belly dance" applies to everything. I explained in another part of this forum why "belly dance" is the translation of the Arabic words, Raqs El sharghi...and how that translation took place not in America at all, but in Egypt. The whole Sol Bloom thing has been pretty much disproved by several writers, including Carlton, and I think I gave references to her work. Of course, you did choose to ignore that because it does not fit into your view of the dance world. You much perefer to think of me as arrogant rather than well researched and a person who has reached her conclusions through hard work and weighing of the evidence.
(Please note here that I am referring you to an expert in her field.) For an example of what I am talking about, go to Dance styles and see Chryssanthi's take on the Greek vidoes presented by Aya. These women are Greek and they view their dance much differently than you or I. The beautiful Ms. Chryssanthi, for whom I have deep respect, explains why the different clips do not necessarily show Tsiftetelli. Belly dance is only a "generic term" among some western belly dancers, that I can see. Among the Arabs it certainly is not. They understand that there is a vast difference between American dancing and their own. If Chryssanthi is any indication, then it is also true among the Greeks that "belly dance" is not a generic term.

Dear Gabi,
How can you argue then, that I am incorrect, or even correct, When you are not sure where we disagree? You have been very hard on me, but you are not sure where we disagree? Most of the restaurant owners are not belly dancers and they may or may not even know the differences themselves, which is just one more reason for good labeling, no matter how complex. Most Festivals are not meant to be dance specific, but to show a variety of stuff going on. Not to mention that festivals is where you see some VERY bizarre stuff in the name of belly dance. I once saw a group with half their hair shaved off and half in big flowing RED, with green beledi costumes, dancing to a some vaguely Arab sounding music... claiming to be Ghawazi dancers. I am still not sure what might have made them Ghawazi.... perhaps the fact that they played finger cymbals was enough for them to say so in their own minds. There are countless acts at festivals. Some of them are truly incredible in their beauty and worth as dance...but they are not belly dance.
I am not going to give you anything specific here about what makes Egyptian belly dance since you could not do the same for me... and to get just downright damn childish about it... I asked you first. I have also asked several other people who chose instead to berate me for my request instead of taking it seriously. The difference is that I can do so. There now, I really must be as mean and narrow minded as you say, hunh?
In fact the only person that I think will come through for me here is Sharon Moore, who really does know her dance and will be able to explain to me what makes her say that some other styles are not Tribal. I hope you will not treat her the same way you have treated me.


Is this really just all about "attracting a market" in the end?? Gabi, thank you!! You have opened my eyes to something that I had overlooked!! I feel like I just got a little Eureka!!!! This may be the real reason why people call things belly dance that are not.

I am snapping a bit this morning and I have to say it FEELS REALLY GOOD. I can get about 10 times uglier than this and risk being kicked out of here. Wouldnt that be fun???
ANYONE WHO WANTS TO REFUTE MY POINTS SHOULD AT LEAST HAVE A LEFT LEG TO STAND ON. Don't just take pot shots at me because you don't agree with me. PROVE YOUR POINTS.

I feel that this morning, I have really earned my BOB T-Shirt.


Regards,
A'isha

Shanazel

Uh, I think I took your request seriously and answered it to the best of my ability. Could you please now tell me about the specifics that you believe makes Egyptian belly dance the only one properly called belly dance? I understand that what makes the dance is essence, but why is Egyptian essence the one by which all others are defined? I'm not trying to be difficult, A'isha, and don't feel the least bit snappish. It is an interesting contention, and I'd like to read the thought process that it arose from.

By the way, the botanical metaphor: if you have a plains cottonwood, it can cross with a narrowleafed cottonwood. The result is still a cottonwood with characteristics of both species- in fact, in the Platte River Valley, you see a long continuum of cottonwoods between a pure plains and pure narrowleaf. Pure strain or not, they are still all classified as cottonwoods. This is how I see belly dance. Now, you can't cross a cottonwood ( populus deltoides) with a cotton plant (gossypium hirsutum) because the genetics just aren't there. The seed won't form. I suppose you could try to cross belly dance with lacrosse, but I doubt those seeds would form either.

Perhaps the basis of the disagreement is the belief that the public at large thinks of Raks Sharqi when it hears the term belly dance. I don't think this is necessarily true worldwide. In the middle east and among expatriate middle easterns and students of the middle east, it is very likely true. Among Americans and New Zealanders and Brazilians, maybe not so true. Is it impossible for middle easterners to view an offshoot of Raks Sharki in any way other than negative? Serious question. Are they genuinely insulted by AmCab, for example, or do they ever think, Hmm, that's an interesting variation on a theme? Yeah, I know that's a sweeping generality (as middle easterners are any more homogenous than folks in North America), but I think you catch my drift.

I'd miss you if you left the forum for any reason, by the way. We'd have to retire your BOB shirt for sure.

Aziyade

Hope Tarik finds this thread 'cause something he said once seems relevant here.

We have:
Horizontal hip figure 8 (or infinity motion) moving from front to back.

What about the above movement makes it a belly dance step?
What about the above movement makes it a salsa step?
What about the above movement makes it a US Tango step?
What about the above movement makes it a social Samba step?
What about the above movement makes it a step in Romanian folk dances?
And what about the above movement makes it a step in Polynesian dance?

It's all the above and probably more. Specific movements are not OWNED by specific dance styles.

Music is what I consider the biggest factor. Music and emotional intent. But I'd like to hear about others.

I don't understand another poster who asked about learning a choreography to a piece of music and then performing it to a different piece of music ...

Um, huh?

Call me i-gnorant, but I was schooled in the idea that the dance is a visual expression of the music. If you change the music, you change the expression entirely. I mean, would you dance the same choreography to Inta Omri that you would to Ghanili Shway Shway ???

(I want to say this MIGHT be something Tribal dancers do -- create specific combinations that would fit specific rhythms, and then dancing to a very simple piece of music with mostly a set rhythm -- BUT, that's NOT been what I've observed watching Awalim and Domba. Awalim's choreographies are complicated and do invoke the spirit of what's happening in the music. So I'm still confused.)

Aziyade

Okay, specifically, here:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=orc6D8bn124


And don't say bad things about these women 'cause I know them and love them and think what they're trying to do is sincere and lovely. !!!

I love their performance art. But nothing about this screams bellydance to me. It's emotional and evocative dancing, done by some of the best in the "Goth" field so far (in my not so humble opinion) but I don't see it being bellydance at all, if by belly you mean Oriental. I fail to see where this has anything in common with belly dance, apart from a torso undulations, some hip movements, and "snake arms," which aren't really Oriental to begin with, but live in the Am Cab repertoire, so I count 'em.

To me, this is refined club dancing, to slower music. This is what I saw in the 80's in the so-called "vampire" clubs in the southeast, before bellydance hit the mainstream again.

Again, just me.

Edited to add:
I have a hard time separating "belly dance" from a setting which is Oriental or Middle eastern, but I know a lot of people don't have that problem. I'm exploring Goth Dance -- leaving the belly out, but using bellydance moves as the medium, and I'm finding it rewarding, but there's not really any connection between it/me and the Middle East. If that doesn't matter, then I can see GBD as a MEdance offshoot, like tribal.