Gothic Belly dance - Page 11

phoenixavathar · 09-07-2006, 01:45 PM

Great point, Michelle

Just one last note. I would love it if someone would simply post a link to a video of someone who IS a "true" bellydancer. I bet we would all post videos that are incredibly different...and it would be nice to accept each others views as our very own "truths". From what has been discussed by a certain individual on this forum, it seems that in my 7 years of dancing I have never actually seen true bellydance (if none of the BDSS are bellydancers...and many of them look just like all of the other bellydancers I've seen out there). I find this pretty comical. I just think that my ideas are just not exactly the same as hers. But I think that's ok. I have no problem with that :-).
However, I wonder what Suhaila Salimpour would say if someone told her that she was not a true bellydancer (because she fuses Jazz, etc). hehehehehe...I'd LOVE to be a fly on the wall during that conversation ;-).

Finally and Respectfully ;-),
Phoenix

Aisha Azar · 09-07-2006, 07:44 PM

Dear Pheonixavatar,
Actually, I have talked with Suhaila at some length and also have a Jareeda article where she says she is not doing so much belly dance as interpretive dance. When I took some workshops with her some 20 years ago, she was at the time saying she was doing "Egyptian", but even then one could see the very strong jazz influence.
For authentic ethnic belly dance, here in the States see Shareen El Safy and Sahra Saida for Egyptian, See Jennet and, if I remember correctly, Artemis Mourat for really good Turkish, and I am not sure who is doing really great Lebanese, but I am pretty sure someone on this forum knows someone. Suha Azar of Lebanon ( no relation) is teaching a Lebanese dance seminar here and she does not perform, but we hear great things about her classes. I think that most of the videos and DVDs of dancers from countries of origin are available through Dalal International and Saut Wa Soura.
I am not trying to be a snot here, but when you say "our very own truths" it sort of sounds a little as if the truth of the dance becomes secondary. In the end, should it really be about the dance and not our personal truths? Please no flaming becasue I do not mean this as derogatory in any way. It feels as if the actuality of the dance in its own right gets lost in all of the various "truths". I think is a valid and important question.
Regards,
A'isha

Gabi · 09-07-2006, 08:49 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Michelle

.......Gabi,
Your comment on ME music has plenty of merit. You're right; Middle Eastern music has changed from what it was 40 years ago. But despite the fusion and the adding of a more pop sound, to me, it still retains a distinctly Middle Eastern flavor that no other region's music has. If I hear a more modern song and I don't happen to know it, I most likely will not confuse it with anything by Celia Cruz (afro-Caribbean referrence). But maybe I'm cheating cuz I'm Cuban (again, afro-caribbean referrence)....

Ha! I'll bet you've been known to throw in a Samba on occasion

Jeffrey · 09-07-2006, 10:33 PM

A'isha,
I think perhaps we are getting much too involved in semantics here. What you are calling "authentic ethnic bellydance" and "bellydance", are they the same thing? When the rest of the world calls something by a certain name, you are certainly free to call it by any name you wish, but it will cause confusion when you talk or correspond with people. Darbukah, tabla, doumbek (mostly American), tareja, darbeleke, are just some of the same names for the very same instrument (but most of us know that). Zills, finger cymbals, etc. are another. If you ask any of the people that are even remotely involved in what I call "bellydance" to describe what bellydance is, I would guarantee that almost all of them would describe something that you would not consider bellydance. So I propose that you are not necessarily incorrect in your feelings about this dance form, but rather you have a very narrow view and perhaps another word or term would be more suitable for you to describe what it is that you do. Perhaps "authentic Middle-Eastern ethnic dance", because the entire rest of the world is going to be calling these different forms that we are talking about "bellydance".
Classical Ottoman court music and dance is very different. Classic Persian dance is very different. Classic Egyptian music and dance is very different. Traditional North African dance is also very different. None of these forms have any similarities to what either you or I would think of when we say the term "bellydance".
The whole origins of bellydance are vague, but the one thing that connects all of the theories to the origins of what we call "bellydance" has to do with a contact with foriegn travellers, mostly Europeans. The idea that this form of dance was in anyway practiced among women and for women going back in history is pure speculation and it could be true, but there is no concrete evidence of it. What we do know is that these dance forms were introduced into western society and they became the rage. People from the Middle-East saw an opportunity to earn an income and began to cater to western tastes. I'm not saying that some of the music and dance moves didn't exist in some manner before, but the whole idea of the single "bellydancer", the performance, drum solo, etc. is a relatively new phenomenon that came about after more contact with the west.
In a strictly Moslem society, the idea of a woman dressing anything like a typical bellydancer would be scandalous and frowned upon. I realize that the Mid-East is NOT all moslem, but those values did regulate the society. The whole issue of cabaret style dancing in clubs with the free flow of alchoholic beverages is also not quite acceptable behavior, even though we all know that Islamic people living in the west sometimes relax those restrictions.
I have had some contact with Dondi and her sister. She has studied and performed in Egypt, for Egyptians. Once for Omar Shariff for his birthday celebration. She does what the Egyptians consider to be excellent Egyptian dance. She was a longtime member of Bellydance Superstars

Recnadocir · 09-08-2006, 01:20 AM

What a great discussion! Only goes to show, once again, that there is no right or wrong, when it comes to arts, specifically the performing arts. It's all a matter of taste. There is no "pure" anything, anymore, but there is a lot of argument about who is "more pure," than someone else.

I think that creative artists follow their muse. They have a foundation in, but are not bound by, cultural origin, tradition, or what others in their particular field think. The technical artists, for lack of a better term at hand, may be excellent performers or teachers, but are not driven toward innovation. I submit that it is the technical artist who does the most to preserve the "original" art form, and pass it on to the next generation. and the creative artist who drives the art form into new territory, sometimes with brilliant results, sometimes not.

I think that despite the probably age old argument that rages here on OD.net, both are needed. However, because of their primary concern with tradition, it may be more difficult for the technical artist to accept the need for the creative artist, than vice versa.

Aisha Azar · 09-08-2006, 04:28 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jeffrey

A'isha,
I think perhaps we are getting much too involved in semantics here. What you are calling "authentic ethnic bellydance" and "bellydance", are they the same thing?

A'isha writes- Dear Jeffrey, yes.

When the rest of the world calls something by a certain name, you are certainly free to call it by any name you wish, but it will cause confusion when you talk or correspond with people.

A.writes- I am not sure who you mean by the rest of the world. The general public in the U.S. is under the impression that "belly dance" is an exptic art form from the Middle East, though they may not know ecxactly where that is. My friends and students are really clear on what belly dance is and is not. I usually don't even have much trouble with dancers understanding what I mean, though there are some who feel rather hostile to the notion that belly dance is an ethnic dance form.

Darbukah, tabla, doumbek (mostly American), tareja, darbeleke, are just some of the same names for the very same instrument (but most of us know that). Zills, finger cymbals, etc. are another. If you ask any of the people that are even remotely involved in what I call "bellydance" to describe what bellydance is, I would guarantee that almost all of them would describe something that you would not consider bellydance.

A. writes- But, the general public still understands belly dance to be something that comes form a foreign land, not from the U.S and not fused with western concepts in dance. And I find that there are many dancers who think and feel as I do. They are recticent to speak up because they see what kind of trouble I am always in! Jeffrey, I really don't think you can make that guarantee. And I should add that all the time there are more dancers calling for clarity in definition, When I first started there was no definition at all. It was all just "belly dance" . Now there is more clarification and definition of styles than 30 years ago and I think this trend will continue and grow. I have seen it grow a lot in my time as dancer.

So I propose that you are not necessarily incorrect in your feelings about this dance form, but rather you have a very narrow view and perhaps another word or term would be more suitable for you to describe what it is that you do. Perhaps "authentic Middle-Eastern ethnic dance", because the entire rest of the world is going to be calling these different forms that we are talking about "bellydance".

A. writes- I disagree and would say in fact that the current trend is not following that line at all. See above. Also, "belly dance" is not my term, but the term of the public who have the idea that they are seeing Middle Eastern dance when they see the words "belly dance". Ask them if you don't believe me. I have done this and they may not know an exact location, but they get in the general vicinity! Neither of us can know waht the future will bring, but I see the opposite happening. We now have many things that are defined more clearly than ever. There is to begin with Turkish, Lebanese and Egyptian belly dance, when 30 years ago there was no clarity on that at all in most cases. I was fortunate to begin my studies with an Arab woman who had danced and sang on the Egyptian circuit, so I had some samall awareness of it.

Classical Ottoman court music and dance is very different. Classic Persian dance is very different. Classic Egyptian music and dance is very different. Traditional North African dance is also very different. None of these forms have any similarities to what either you or I would think of when we say the term "bellydance".

A.writes- I am not sure what your point is above, since I have never argued that point. I have been dancing for over 32 years. During that time I have studied Egyptian belly dance and various fokloric dances, American Oriental ( Thanks for the definition, Salome!), Turkish belly dance, Turkish folkloric dance including Ali Pasa. I have studied Persian classical dance and Greek Syrtos and other Greek folkloric dances. I have studied the dances of the Maghrib including Tunisian, Algerian and Moroccan forms. I have studied Samri and Saudi forms of the dance in depth and in fact introduced Raqs Nejdi Hadith into the States with my best friend, who is Saudi. I fully understand differences between folkloric dances and belly dance and I also note that these dances are understood as being separate forms and distinguished when they are called anything at all. No one mistakes Samri for belly dance. That is all I want for the dances, clarity in definition. Since belly dance denotes to the public a dance that is from these mysterious countries, that is what I base my thinking on. Ethnic belly dance is already called that by the general public. They do not think fusion, they think of the dance from over there.

The whole origins of bellydance are vague, but the one thing that connects all of the theories to the origins of what we call "bellydance" has to do with a contact with foriegn travellers, mostly Europeans.

A. writes- I disagree and there is a lot of reason to believe the dance was developing as an entertaimment of, by and for the natives before it ever hit the entertainment stage. This is not a vague process and it also is easy to trace to very specific time period. The same thing has happend around the world to dances as large groups of people moved in the cities from the countryside. their dances evolved within their own cultural environment, into new forms.

The idea that this form of dance was in anyway practiced among women and for women going back in history is pure speculation and it could be true, but there is no concrete evidence of it.

A. writes- I agree, tentatively,but I am not sure why you are making this reference.

What we do know is that these dance forms were introduced into western society and they became the rage. People from the Middle-East saw an opportunity to earn an income and began to cater to western tastes. I'm not saying that some of the music and dance moves didn't exist in some manner before, but the whole idea of the single "bellydancer", the performance, drum solo, etc. is a relatively new phenomenon that came about after more contact with the west.

A'writes- Again I would have to say that we really do need to get over the idea that nothing ever happens until we get on the scene. I very much disagree with that statement above. Drum solos and other sorts of taqsims have been in Arab music for ever. The solo performer has been a mainstay in Egyptian dance for longer than we have been there. I do agree that belly dance is probably slightly more than 100 years old, but I think it would have evolved with or without the input of the west. It might have been used in one capacity as entertainment for foreigners, but it has been perfomed at weddings and other celebrations that do not involve the west for a long time.

In a strictly Moslem society, the idea of a woman dressing anything like a typical bellydancer would be scandalous and frowned upon. I realize that the Mid-East is NOT all moslem, but those values did regulate the society. The whole issue of cabaret style dancing in clubs with the free flow of alchoholic beverages is also not quite acceptable behavior, even though we all know that Islamic people living in the west sometimes relax those restrictions.

A.Writes- I don't understand how this fits into our conversation. It is pretty clear that belly dance is not a "nice" thing to do in Islamic societies, or for that matter even here by some peoples' estimation. This is not a dasnce about social acceptability and never has been...

I have had some contact with Dondi and her sister. She has studied and performed in Egypt, for Egyptians. Once for Omar Shariff for his birthday celebration. She does what the Egyptians consider to be excellent Egyptian dance. She was a longtime member of Bellydance Superstars

A. writes- If you are taling about Dondi Dalen, she is not a belly dancer. Having danced in Egypt does not make one a belly dancer if they miss the cultural connection. I hate to sound like a broken record, but what is it about Dondi's dancing that leads you to feel that she is a belly dancer?

Dear Rico,
You seem to think that being an authentic dance artist somehow means we are not creative. Can you tell me why you believe that? I consider creating within the boundaries of the dance to be very creative indeed.

Regards,
A'isha

Jeffrey · 09-08-2006, 05:23 AM

Sorry to have bothered you.

Recnadocir · 09-08-2006, 09:18 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by A'isha Azar

Dear Rico,
You seem to think that being an authentic dance artist somehow means we are not creative. Can you tell me why you believe that? I consider creating within the boundaries of the dance to be very creative indeed.

Regards,
A'isha

Please define "authentic."

Aisha Azar · 09-08-2006, 02:08 PM

Dear Jeffrey,
You didn't bother me and it was nice talking about this issue with you.

Dear Rico,
Authentic as far as belly dance is concerned is the the dances as the come from the Middle East in any given time period. It means that they are what they claim to be... Middle Eastern/ North African dance. Authentic dance is innovative, as we can see by noting differences in presentation, personal styling within the boundaries of dance, etc.
Not to be confused with traditional, which is the strict adherence to the dance as it might have been, with no new innovations added.
When Dina comes along and dances in a short skirt, she is not traditional but she is authentic and innovative. Even as she dances in a short skirt, she still retains the spirit, understand that the music is to be interpreted within certain boundaries and knows a movement vocabulary associated with the feeling and spirit of the dance and knows how to execute that vocabulary with the right approach.

I need to add that other styles and fusions also are authentic as what they are. They are innovative and when done well ( just like any art form there are those can and can not do them), they are art in their own right. They just need a new classification or label and I know that is a dirty word, but let us remember that belly dance is a label, too.

I have answered your question, now will you please answer mine about why you do not think that authetoc belly dancers are creative?
Regards to you both,
A'isha

Obsidia · 09-08-2006, 02:49 PM

Well after reading ELEVEN pages of mostly snobbish, holier than thou, catty remarks....well I actually feel like I need a freaking shower to wash the filth off of me!

I can't believe what I'm hearing!

Are you people so threatened by what you don't understand that all you can do is put the Gothic dance form down? That's truly heartbreaking.

I see the merits of retaining the "traditional" Middle Eastern dances in their original forms (or as close to their original forms as we can possibly can)..and as a historian I deeply appreciate those who do so. Dancing those styles though simply isn't for me. That's okay.

I've been a dancer my entire life-classical ballet, jazz, modern dance, now bellydance. I started in American cabaret and found my way to ATS then into tribal fusion now Gothic fusion. Does that mean I am no longer a bellydancer? Absolutely not! Because my costuming is sequined and bright pink (although I am highly partial to orange) doesn't exclude me from the Bellydance lineage. My dance vocabulary is 90% bellydance movements with the remaining bits being my former training and some Goth clubby type moves.

Musically, I choose to dance to what MOVES me. Whether it be a techno piece or something more traditional, I am still a bellydancer and on that I stand firm.

This shouldn't be a battle of "Our style is better than YOUR style"..when did we revert back to fourth grade???

Bottom line: Dancer's bodies ALL speak the same language, no matter WHAT the costuming or music.

I just wish everyone would drop their damn egos and misconceptions and realize that.

Oh and in regards to the lit-tle snipes bagging on Gothic bellydance, Tempest has put out TWO DVDs, how many do YOU girls have out??? HMMMM????

09-07-2006, 01:45 PM	#101 (permalink)
phoenixavathar Junior Member Join Date: Sep 2006 Posts: 3	Who IS bellydancing? Great point, Michelle Just one last note. I would love it if someone would simply post a link to a video of someone who IS a "true" bellydancer. I bet we would all post videos that are incredibly different...and it would be nice to accept each others views as our very own "truths". From what has been discussed by a certain individual on this forum, it seems that in my 7 years of dancing I have never actually seen true bellydance (if none of the BDSS are bellydancers...and many of them look just like all of the other bellydancers I've seen out there). I find this pretty comical. I just think that my ideas are just not exactly the same as hers. But I think that's ok. I have no problem with that :-). However, I wonder what Suhaila Salimpour would say if someone told her that she was not a true bellydancer (because she fuses Jazz, etc). hehehehehe...I'd LOVE to be a fly on the wall during that conversation ;-). Finally and Respectfully ;-), Phoenix

09-07-2006, 07:44 PM	#102 (permalink)
Aisha Azar V.I.P. Join Date: Jul 2006 Location: Pacific Northwest USA Posts: 4,463	Goth Dear Pheonixavatar, Actually, I have talked with Suhaila at some length and also have a Jareeda article where she says she is not doing so much belly dance as interpretive dance. When I took some workshops with her some 20 years ago, she was at the time saying she was doing "Egyptian", but even then one could see the very strong jazz influence. For authentic ethnic belly dance, here in the States see Shareen El Safy and Sahra Saida for Egyptian, See Jennet and, if I remember correctly, Artemis Mourat for really good Turkish, and I am not sure who is doing really great Lebanese, but I am pretty sure someone on this forum knows someone. Suha Azar of Lebanon ( no relation) is teaching a Lebanese dance seminar here and she does not perform, but we hear great things about her classes. I think that most of the videos and DVDs of dancers from countries of origin are available through Dalal International and Saut Wa Soura. I am not trying to be a snot here, but when you say "our very own truths" it sort of sounds a little as if the truth of the dance becomes secondary. In the end, should it really be about the dance and not our personal truths? Please no flaming becasue I do not mean this as derogatory in any way. It feels as if the actuality of the dance in its own right gets lost in all of the various "truths". I think is a valid and important question. Regards, A'isha

09-07-2006, 10:33 PM	#104 (permalink)
Jeffrey Junior Member Join Date: Sep 2006 Location: Long Island, NY Posts: 19	Out of curiousity A'isha, I think perhaps we are getting much too involved in semantics here. What you are calling "authentic ethnic bellydance" and "bellydance", are they the same thing? When the rest of the world calls something by a certain name, you are certainly free to call it by any name you wish, but it will cause confusion when you talk or correspond with people. Darbukah, tabla, doumbek (mostly American), tareja, darbeleke, are just some of the same names for the very same instrument (but most of us know that). Zills, finger cymbals, etc. are another. If you ask any of the people that are even remotely involved in what I call "bellydance" to describe what bellydance is, I would guarantee that almost all of them would describe something that you would not consider bellydance. So I propose that you are not necessarily incorrect in your feelings about this dance form, but rather you have a very narrow view and perhaps another word or term would be more suitable for you to describe what it is that you do. Perhaps "authentic Middle-Eastern ethnic dance", because the entire rest of the world is going to be calling these different forms that we are talking about "bellydance". Classical Ottoman court music and dance is very different. Classic Persian dance is very different. Classic Egyptian music and dance is very different. Traditional North African dance is also very different. None of these forms have any similarities to what either you or I would think of when we say the term "bellydance". The whole origins of bellydance are vague, but the one thing that connects all of the theories to the origins of what we call "bellydance" has to do with a contact with foriegn travellers, mostly Europeans. The idea that this form of dance was in anyway practiced among women and for women going back in history is pure speculation and it could be true, but there is no concrete evidence of it. What we do know is that these dance forms were introduced into western society and they became the rage. People from the Middle-East saw an opportunity to earn an income and began to cater to western tastes. I'm not saying that some of the music and dance moves didn't exist in some manner before, but the whole idea of the single "bellydancer", the performance, drum solo, etc. is a relatively new phenomenon that came about after more contact with the west. In a strictly Moslem society, the idea of a woman dressing anything like a typical bellydancer would be scandalous and frowned upon. I realize that the Mid-East is NOT all moslem, but those values did regulate the society. The whole issue of cabaret style dancing in clubs with the free flow of alchoholic beverages is also not quite acceptable behavior, even though we all know that Islamic people living in the west sometimes relax those restrictions. I have had some contact with Dondi and her sister. She has studied and performed in Egypt, for Egyptians. Once for Omar Shariff for his birthday celebration. She does what the Egyptians consider to be excellent Egyptian dance. She was a longtime member of Bellydance Superstars

09-08-2006, 01:20 AM	#105 (permalink)
Recnadocir Member Join Date: Jul 2006 Location: La La Land Posts: 466	What a great discussion! Only goes to show, once again, that there is no right or wrong, when it comes to arts, specifically the performing arts. It's all a matter of taste. There is no "pure" anything, anymore, but there is a lot of argument about who is "more pure," than someone else. I think that creative artists follow their muse. They have a foundation in, but are not bound by, cultural origin, tradition, or what others in their particular field think. The technical artists, for lack of a better term at hand, may be excellent performers or teachers, but are not driven toward innovation. I submit that it is the technical artist who does the most to preserve the "original" art form, and pass it on to the next generation. and the creative artist who drives the art form into new territory, sometimes with brilliant results, sometimes not. I think that despite the probably age old argument that rages here on OD.net, both are needed. However, because of their primary concern with tradition, it may be more difficult for the technical artist to accept the need for the creative artist, than vice versa. __________________ http://a537.ac-images.myspacecdn.com...0267e2f1c0.jpg *Nos es in Hollywood , quod vos es non!*

09-08-2006, 05:23 AM	#107 (permalink)
Jeffrey Junior Member Join Date: Sep 2006 Location: Long Island, NY Posts: 19	Okay, I give up. Sorry to have bothered you.

09-08-2006, 02:08 PM	#109 (permalink)
Aisha Azar V.I.P. Join Date: Jul 2006 Location: Pacific Northwest USA Posts: 4,463	Goth Dear Jeffrey, You didn't bother me and it was nice talking about this issue with you. Dear Rico, Authentic as far as belly dance is concerned is the the dances as the come from the Middle East in any given time period. It means that they are what they claim to be... Middle Eastern/ North African dance. Authentic dance is innovative, as we can see by noting differences in presentation, personal styling within the boundaries of dance, etc. Not to be confused with traditional, which is the strict adherence to the dance as it might have been, with no new innovations added. When Dina comes along and dances in a short skirt, she is not traditional but she is authentic and innovative. Even as she dances in a short skirt, she still retains the spirit, understand that the music is to be interpreted within certain boundaries and knows a movement vocabulary associated with the feeling and spirit of the dance and knows how to execute that vocabulary with the right approach. I need to add that other styles and fusions also are authentic as what they are. They are innovative and when done well ( just like any art form there are those can and can not do them), they are art in their own right. They just need a new classification or label and I know that is a dirty word, but let us remember that belly dance is a label, too. I have answered your question, now will you please answer mine about why you do not think that authetoc belly dancers are creative? Regards to you both, A'isha

09-08-2006, 02:49 PM	#110 (permalink)
Obsidia Junior Member Join Date: Sep 2006 Location: Texas Posts: 13	Good Lordy Well after reading ELEVEN pages of mostly snobbish, holier than thou, catty remarks....well I actually feel like I need a freaking shower to wash the filth off of me! I can't believe what I'm hearing! Are you people so threatened by what you don't understand that all you can do is put the Gothic dance form down? That's truly heartbreaking. I see the merits of retaining the "traditional" Middle Eastern dances in their original forms (or as close to their original forms as we can possibly can)..and as a historian I deeply appreciate those who do so. Dancing those styles though simply isn't for me. That's okay. I've been a dancer my entire life-classical ballet, jazz, modern dance, now bellydance. I started in American cabaret and found my way to ATS then into tribal fusion now Gothic fusion. Does that mean I am no longer a bellydancer? Absolutely not! Because my costuming is sequined and bright pink (although I am highly partial to orange) doesn't exclude me from the Bellydance lineage. My dance vocabulary is 90% bellydance movements with the remaining bits being my former training and some Goth clubby type moves. Musically, I choose to dance to what MOVES me. Whether it be a techno piece or something more traditional, I am still a bellydancer and on that I stand firm. This shouldn't be a battle of "Our style is better than YOUR style"..when did we revert back to fourth grade??? Bottom line: Dancer's bodies ALL speak the same language, no matter WHAT the costuming or music. I just wish everyone would drop their damn egos and misconceptions and realize that. Oh and in regards to the lit-tle snipes bagging on Gothic bellydance, Tempest has put out TWO DVDs, how many do YOU girls have out??? HMMMM????