Plus Size Dancers - Page 10

Aisha Azar · 08-03-2008, 05:09 PM

.... I want to say that I am amazed that all of the people who came down so heavy on me for daring to suggest that all male shows are not healthy for the dance community are not here to do the same thing to those of us on this thread who state that we do not want to see all plus sized shows and workshops..... Are we just a different kind of bitch if we don't want exclusive plus sized events?
What is the difference? Both groups have been discriminated against in the dance world. Both groups need support and inclusion, both groups want to be recognized as having skill for the dance. Why the uproar in one case but not the other? I'm curious... it does not make sense to me.....perhaps those same people are not reading this thread??
Regards,
A'isha

lizaj · 08-03-2008, 05:39 PM

I'd much prefer to see a show like ours just held in Liverpool that contains male and female dancers, younger and older dancers, dancers of different body types. Those of ME and N.African blood and those of European origin.There were professional dancers and teachers and students of long standing all doing their best to entertain and all loving the dance.

da Sage · 08-03-2008, 06:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Aisha Azar

.... I want to say that I am amazed that all of the people who came down so heavy on me for daring to suggest that all male shows are not healthy for the dance community are not here to do the same thing to those of us on this thread who state that we do not want to see all plus sized shows and workshops..... Are we just a different kind of bitch if we don't want exclusive plus sized events?
What is the difference? Both groups have been discriminated against in the dance world. Both groups need support and inclusion, both groups want to be recognized as having skill for the dance. Why the uproar in one case but not the other? I'm curious... it does not make sense to me.....perhaps those same people are not reading this thread??
Regards,
A'isha

Well, I will step up and say that I am not so supportive of plus-sized shows as I am of plus-sized classes. The idea is that the plus-sized class is an educational tool, and the plus-sized show is a promotional and bonding event. I wish that plus-sized dancers should not feel that they need their own event; I would hope that after a dancer is advanced enough in skill to perform at a showcase, she (he?) would feel a part of the bellydance world, such that a large-dancer show would have little appeal for them. But story after story proves this is not the case, so I cannot come down on dancers who are intrigued by the idea of a show "just for them".

I support the male-only undertakings, and the BOCA undertakings (Bellydancers of Color Association, I believe), because historical and (some) modern attitudes mark a divide between male and female dancers, and "white" and "of color" dancers. I don't think it is right, I think we are moving beyond that, but in the meantime, I can't say "In a perfect world, you shouldn't want this; therefore you shouldn't have it in this imperfect one, either".

I am not going to start a show for only blonds (although it would be easy where I live

), because today blonds do not face overwhelming prejudice in bellydance. But perhaps in some cities in the 60's, such a show would have made sense as a statement. Even today, some troupes encourage their members to dye their hair for a more uniform, middle-eastern look, and I'm sure many solo dancers dye for that reason, too.

ShiroiOji · 08-03-2008, 08:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by da Sage

If you loved that, you should hear me tell off people who say I'm bigboned. "Absolutely not. I'm smallboned and overweight."

If I wasn't a big ol' queer, I would so ask you to marry me!

Aisha Azar · 08-03-2008, 08:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by lizaj

I'd much prefer to see a show like ours just held in Liverpool that contains male and female dancers, younger and older dancers, dancers of different body types. Those of ME and N.African blood and those of European origin.There were professional dancers and teachers and students of long standing all doing their best to entertain and all loving the dance.

Dear Lizaj,
YES!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! That's what I'm talking about! A skill for performing or teaching the dance and a deep love of it is what should drive people to put a show together. Decide what you want to see on your stage and choose who can best do it within your range of dancers available for the production. Gender, color, size, etc. have no bearing on that criteria.
Regards,
A'isha

ShiroiOji · 08-03-2008, 08:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Aisha Azar

Dear Lizaj,
YES!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! That's what I'm talking about! A skill for performing or teaching the dance and a deep love of it is what should drive people to put a show together. Decide what you want to see on your stage and choose who can best do it within your range of dancers available for the production. Gender, color, size, etc. have no bearing on that criteria.
Regards,
A'isha

So what if it's a male interpretation of the dance, out of curiosity? We all know that males and females don't dance the same because of physical differences, and what if there was a show that spotlit a male interpretation?

I have no real opinion on it; I'm just trying to add more to the pot and all.

da Sage · 08-03-2008, 08:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ShiroiOji

If I wasn't a big ol' queer, I would so ask you to marry me!

You flatterer!

Aisha Azar · 08-03-2008, 08:45 PM

Dear daSage,

Quote:

Originally Posted by da Sage

Well, I will step up and say that I am not so supportive of plus-sized shows as I am of plus-sized classes. The idea is that the plus-sized class is an educational tool, and the plus-sized show is a promotional and bonding event. I wish that plus-sized dancers should not feel that they need their own event; I would hope that after a dancer is advanced enough in skill to perform at a showcase, she (he?) would feel a part of the bellydance world, such that a large-dancer show would have little appeal for them. But story after story proves this is not the case, so I cannot come down on dancers who are intrigued by the idea of a show "just for
them".

Any segregationist show is only supporting segregation. I would not want to support any show that separates out an group for any reason and says, only THIS type of person can be in the event.

Quote:

I support the male-only undertakings, and the BOCA undertakings (Bellydancers of Color Association, I believe), because historical and (some) modern attitudes mark a divide between male and female dancers, and "white" and "of color" dancers. I don't think it is right, I think we are moving beyond that, but in the meantime, I can't say "In a perfect world, you shouldn't want this; therefore you shouldn't have it in this imperfect one, either".

Segregationist shows add to the issue by recreating it. They do not stop the prejudices; they only add to them. They also create groups who are treated in an elitist way, and this is not based on talent or skill, but on other criteria that should not apply in dance. This is not a perfect world by treating the issue in an imperfect way does not help.

That whole males being treated unequally thing is largely a mythology. Mostly they are treated better than women dancers and this has been going on for at least as long as a I have been dancing. They have an easier time by far than many plus sized or over 40 dancers that I know,.

Quote:

I am not going to start a show for only blonds (although it would be easy where I live

), because today blonds do not face overwhelming prejudice in bellydance.

..... Neither have men. Plus sized dancer and older dancer certainly experience much more prejudice!

Quote:

But perhaps in some cities in the 60's, such a show would have made sense as a statement. Even today, some troupes encourage their members to dye their hair for a more uniform, middle-eastern look, and I'm sure many solo dancers dye for that reason, too.

My members must dye their hair if they are grey haired, but they always have the option to wear wigs instead. the grey hair does not enhance the dance in any way and usually makes the dancer look haggard, especially if the color is at the roots and not elsewhere. My older dancers understand that we need to look our best and wigs or dyed hair looks best. Wigs are an age old tool in the dance and have been worn by most dancers at one time or another in Egypt and other parts of the Middle East.
I should add here that even though I have that rule for my dance company, we do have people with grey hair in our shows sometimes, if they can do a dance that we have in mind for a particular show. In the end, ut is about putting on the best show possible, and that's all about talent.

Regards,
A'isha

Aisha Azar · 08-03-2008, 09:12 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ShiroiOji

So what if it's a male interpretation of the dance, out of curiosity? We all know that males and females don't dance the same because of physical differences, and what if there was a show that spotlit a male interpretation?

I have no real opinion on it; I'm just trying to add more to the pot and all.

Dear ShiroiOji,
This dance has a feminine essence that is at the base of its cultural spirit. That, however does not mean that males can not perform belly dance. It also does not have to mean that men must present as women, but only that they keep in mind what the intent of the dance was and is. I agree that physically, men and women often do have to move differently to produce the same movements. ( Many people do not believe this is so, but I think that the shallower pelvis of males makes them definitely move differently than females.) However, in the Middle East, many dancers use different variations of movement from the same movement families than other dancers, so this difference from male to female is not big deal. Movement is the tip of the iceberg and the bigger picture allows for good male dancers tapping into that feminine energy that is inside each person to some degree. Even the native female dancers are for the most part, not overly effeminate, so this is not what I am talking about. It is difficult to understand and many insist that it is not there, but when you have been dancing for awhile, you might begin to understand what I am saying. There are ways in which males and females move simply in expressing their nature and their gender,but this is something more in the spirit of the dance as something outside of ourselves, if we can accept that the dance has its own nature, which it does, just like any other dance form.
I hope this makes sense...
Regards,
A'isha

Caroline_afifi · 08-04-2008, 10:12 AM

I have not followed this thread for some time. I just checked back and see an interesting discussion has broken out.

Seperatism??

OK in my city we have a dance festival for the over 50's funded by North West Arts and we have Youth dance festivals and we have cultural festivals etc.
However... a show of larger women? I would say no to be honest.
I would not try to talk anyone out of doing it if that is what they really wanted, but dividing on an issue of body image is a strange path to take. The BDSS only have slim women so a show of larger women will look like a comedy version whether you like it or not, because that is how people will view it (Vicar of Dibley in a Tutu, can anyone get it on youtube?).

Drawing attention to ones body shape in this way is not a positive move.
I think there is already a secret discrimination of bigger women in this dance.
I dont think it will threaten anything by doing so but it will look like you are trying to prove something.

08-03-2008, 05:09 PM	#91 (permalink)
Aisha Azar V.I.P. Join Date: Jul 2006 Location: Pacific Northwest USA Posts: 4,518	What's the difference .... I want to say that I am amazed that all of the people who came down so heavy on me for daring to suggest that all male shows are not healthy for the dance community are not here to do the same thing to those of us on this thread who state that we do not want to see all plus sized shows and workshops..... Are we just a different kind of bitch if we don't want exclusive plus sized events? What is the difference? Both groups have been discriminated against in the dance world. Both groups need support and inclusion, both groups want to be recognized as having skill for the dance. Why the uproar in one case but not the other? I'm curious... it does not make sense to me.....perhaps those same people are not reading this thread?? Regards, A'isha

08-03-2008, 05:39 PM	#92 (permalink)
lizaj Moderator Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: UK Posts: 1,288	I'd much prefer to see a show like ours just held in Liverpool that contains male and female dancers, younger and older dancers, dancers of different body types. Those of ME and N.African blood and those of European origin.There were professional dancers and teachers and students of long standing all doing their best to entertain and all loving the dance.

08-04-2008, 10:12 AM	#100 (permalink)
Caroline_afifi V.I.P. Join Date: Mar 2008 Location: Liverpool UK Posts: 1,378	I have not followed this thread for some time. I just checked back and see an interesting discussion has broken out. Seperatism?? OK in my city we have a dance festival for the over 50's funded by North West Arts and we have Youth dance festivals and we have cultural festivals etc. However... a show of larger women? I would say no to be honest. I would not try to talk anyone out of doing it if that is what they really wanted, but dividing on an issue of body image is a strange path to take. The BDSS only have slim women so a show of larger women will look like a comedy version whether you like it or not, because that is how people will view it (Vicar of Dibley in a Tutu, can anyone get it on youtube?). Drawing attention to ones body shape in this way is not a positive move. I think there is already a secret discrimination of bigger women in this dance. I dont think it will threaten anything by doing so but it will look like you are trying to prove something.