Originally Posted by janaki

Any issues about culture, religion and race are sensitive/offensive to people. I personally think it is not wise to post any more video clips and articles about/of offensive nature. Things became hot on this thread and I was happy that they were resolved or atleast properly explained. When I saw all these new links about Iraqi women and stuff, it feels like we are adding fuel to the fire. Heated deabtes are fine as long as they are not about particular person, race, religion and culture.

I also would like to add, we all have freedom of expression. But if my exressions offend any person, I would think twice before I would express it.

Originally Posted by da Sage

Hi A'isha,

My point in linking the articles was to counter your assertion that women were not harrassed in public in Saudi Arabia for crossing the "respectable comportment" line. I did say that bad things happen everywhere, and I specified the US as one of those places; I also think there are particular bad things that happen more often in Muslim-majority countries (especially countries where the government is more religion-based, than secular-based), than in other countries with similar wealth.

I am not out to "fix" the Middle East (well, other than getting our troops and contractors out of Iraq, rebuilding Iraq's infrastructure and human services system, avoiding war with Iran, helping support a fair and livable solution to the Israel/Palestine mess). I just wanted to say that life for women in Saudi Arabia isn't "just fine" for all of them, as some people seemed to imply. It isn't because of the veil, as many Western women instinctively assume, but because of assumptions and laws that usually come along with a mandated veil.

I don't want to extend the debate, I just wanted to make a couple of points that I feel are important. I could rail mightily about the injustices in American society, workplaces, and law enforcement, but I am not sure this is the place for that. And I respect Janaki's advice that maybe this is not the place for discussion of Arab or Middle-Eastern or Muslim society (yes, I do understand that these are all different things). So I don't plan to post any more about it now.

Originally Posted by A'isha Azar

Dear Gang,
My point is this. In our own country we have so very many abuses, by the government, by the legal system, etc., yet, we are very quick to point fingers at any other country where they do things differently, and we sometimes mistake some of those differences for a kind of cruelty when they are not. Both males and females in Saudi Arabia must dress modestly, and women more modestly than men. It is not different than me having to wear my shirt in public while men are free to walk down the street, and even enter some establishments without one. My shirt is darn hot in the summer just like his is, so why does He not have to wear one, but I do? We SAY women have protection under the law here in America, against being beaten by their husbands, boyfriends, the rapist who lives next door, etc, but often that is not the truth of the matter at all. I had a neighbor who was shot to death by her ex-husband in front of her kids on Christmas night. We all know people who can not get protection under the laws, and that is WHY so many women are the victims of domestic violence and why so many children are abused to death. Terrible things go on everywhere. At the same time, so do some darn good things. How about looking up some of that stuff instead?
Funny we never see reports about how one of the Saudi princes donated an amazing amount of money to UNICEF for the sake of children all over the world, or how the people in Iraq had a higher literacy rate than the United States before the Gulf wars, or how the men in Saudi Arabia are often outspoken, at their own risk, at the unfair treatment by the government of their mothers, wives and sisters. Many times the way the people live is just as ordinary as the way we each live. We see the few terrible incidents. If their photographers came here, or look for photos of Americans being horrible in the country we currently occupy, they could find just as much abuse. If they came to Spokane alone, they would have a plate full of ugly stuff to go back home and report.
It is much more titillating to report the ugly stuff. The really good stuff just does not sell papers, nor get people as riled up as we are on this thread right now.
And, if we are all upset about what is going on is Saudi Arabia, it will sure help to take our minds off of the bad things that are going on right here! And the opposite holds true for Saudis. We each could be expending energy fixing things in our own country instead of talking about how bad the other guy is.
Regards,
A'isha

Originally Posted by KuteNurse

A'isha,

I do have a difference in opinion on one topic. I believe Some middle eastern women in Some countries do not have a choice whether or not to wear robes and veils...They do not have the choice and if they do not wear the appropriate garb, they are severely punished for it.

A'isha writes- That is certainly true in Afghanistan, which is NOT an Arab country. But, I also do not have choice of wearing appropriate garb and will be arrested for indecent exposure if I go out dressed in garb that is not considered decent in this country. AND men who are not dressed decently in those countries get punished also. Sometimes this means if they leave home without a hat.

In America and in some other countries, there is no required dress code. A woman at Mardi Gras in New Orleans can show her breasts 3 times before she is arrested. (According to a documentary I saw on an educational television show.)

A. writes- I wonder how many times a man can show his chest at Mardi Gras before HE is arrested!


Also, there are legal nude beaches lined across the United States and other countries, giving women the choice to lose her clothing if she so choses to do so. One other point is: I do not think it is a good analogy to compare women wearing robes and veils to women going topless in public.

A. writes- Why not? This is a cultural issue, not a god made mandate, about how much skin it is okay to expose in public.

It would be better to compare dressed women of one country with dressed women of another country.

A. writes- Same thing.

I do agree with you when you say terrible things go on everywhere, whether it is verbal, physical, sexual abuse. It happens in every age category and gender. It is wonderful that the Princess of Saudi Arabia was generous to give UNICEF money. Good deeds such as this are done all over the world however. I believe it is one thing to give money to abused children, yet another thing to actually get down into it and take care of our abused children.

A. writes: For me, one is just as important as the other. Because of his generosity, UNICEF was able to immunize children who would perhaps otherwise died at a very early age, or out a well in a community that did not have one before, or by grain for farmers in a Third World country so they could grow their own food, or any number of other good things that could happen because the funds were there. I see this as every bit as valuable as a one on one situation.

That is what we need to see to have lives rebuilt and old wounds closed by our abused children. For example: my sister donates her time to the big brother/big sister program. She has a little sister whom was abused and in foster care. She takes her out once a week or more often sometimes. They go shopping, crafting and just spend quality time with one another. This is where differences are made in the lives of an abused child. The money does help to get children out of poverty, but it is the caring that matters.

A. writes- I think one has to care to give in the first place, and it is not a contest to see which caring is the best. It is all good! Even in the case of big companies who give to improve their image, the result is good, regardless of their less than altruistic motivations. Not all people are in an emotional position to deal with abused children on an individual basis.. I know I am not. But, I once contributed a good sum of money to my local crisis center and they were able to take care of the physical needs of some abused kids because of it.

Something else for thought. Americans are truly givers. Look at the positive reconstruction efforts that are happening in Iraq. Girls can attend school once again. Correct me if I am wrong, because I believe girls could not attend school before the second Gulf War.

A. writes- Acccording to David Lamb, who wrote "The Arabs", before the first Gulf War, literacy in Iraq was at 70% and both males and females were equally educated. the book was written sometime in the late 1980s, if I remember correctly.I can quote you from the book if you like, but I would have to find where the info is, and the book is WAY over there on that bookshelf, (I hope). Both girls and boys went to school I am not sure, but I see no reason why this would have changed between the first and second Gulf wars. I see how it would have changed all together after the infrastructure that Saddam Hussein built was destroyed by the invasion of Iraq. If Americans and their buddies destroyed the schools, then it is not so strange that they should rebuild them,

Look at the aid that the United states sent to India during the Tsunami a couple of years ago. Not only was money sent, but important goods such as water and food, blankets and clothing. Basic human needs! The United States sent more money and Aid than any other country sent during that catastrophe. My point is, there is more positive that United States has given than negative...As in all countries. The United States people are about giving. I am not talking about government here.

Originally Posted by A'isha Azar

Dear da Sage,
Could you please quote for me where I stated that women are not harassed in public for crossing the "respectable comportment" line?

Originally Posted by A'isha Azar

Are you also willing to see that I would be arrested for not wearing a shirt, which would be considered "respectable comportment" here?

Originally Posted by A'isha Azar

And, as Gypsy pointed out, often what the English caption SAYS is happening, is not what is going on at all.

Originally Posted by A'isha Azar

I think people in the U.S, have a little bit of an incorrect view about the mutawwah, or morals police in Saudi. First, the people often yell at them and cause a scene if the mutawwah bother them. They are just as likely to harass men as women, perhaps more so since often the male family membess can get pretty uptight about the mutawwah bothering their female family members. I have a friend who was wearing some tight pants under her abaya and a mutawwah tried to bother her about it. She just started giving him hell and her brother came over and told the jerk to let her alone and quit looking at his sister, etc. From what I hear from various Saudis, this is a pretty common occurance. The mutawwah are considered by both the government and the people to be a but of a nuisance, and they are often barely tolerated by either group. Many times, according to several Saudis with whom I have discussed the matter, the mutawaah are people who could not get through religious school, and so can not teach or make their livings a imams or whatever. They are in some ways outcasts in the society. People do not take them nearly as seriously as we have been led to believe.

Originally Posted by A'isha Azar

Now, the Taliban in Afghanistan are another story all together.....