Mosaic

This is a touchy subject, and an interesting one. It is difficult for people raised in the ideology of a western culture to understand/accept the ways of another culture/ideology, and yes I understand where all respondents are coming from, we all seem to have strong views and I believe we could argue these points until the cows come come so to speak ( I believe this is a very "Kiwi" term - and probably used by other countries as well - LOL) Anyway, I am sure no one here believes it is right and just to honour kill a family member, nor do they believe it is right or just for someone to murder another for whatever reason. It is neither right nor just to say another culture is wrong/ right because their ways/beliefs are different to one's own. It is a matter for each individual to choose to live their lives justly and with compassion and understanding or to not do so. It is up to the individual/or individual culture or groups within a culture to stand up and push for change and yes that happens. I really do not believe all our talk heated or otherwise here will change a thing, we will walk away with our beliefs and probably some anger or hurt because another is not understanding where we are coming from.... the reason for that is absolutely due to where and how we have been raised, and yes we can live full and productive lives within a culture that may seem strange and very foreign to us, but in doing so, one must accept the way of that land, whether you approve/agree with whatever the issue is or not. We cannot force our own values/beliefs on another. That does not cause change, but only wars and recrimination.

Sure I would love to have the power to go out there (wherever there is) and create a world of peace/harmony/acceptance etc, but greater people all over the world greater than I have been trying for many, many years, yes small and some large changes have occurred, but some thing are very unlikely to change - One of those things is forcing others to follow another's rules when it comes to culture, unless they wish to do so with all their heart, and we see that all the time, individuals take risks and change beliefs/religions and countries and take their new cultures mores as part of their own cultures mores that they wish to hold onto, and that is how it should be. Each culture has its good, bad and ugly, but I believe is good/bad/ugly may not be as another see's it, so who am I to say they are wrong and who are they to say I am wrong. I am a strong believer in human & animal rights and justice for all, no matter where you come from, believe in. If someone comes to me and asks for help I will fight for their rights the best way I can, I will also offer help if I believe that it is needed, but if that person says no thanks then that is their right and even if I think they are "wrong" I don't have the right to interfere, unless there is likely to be harm done to others.

As I have mentioned previously, I lived for 11 years in the most populous Muslim nation in the world, and yes I thought some things were strange and sometimes shocking, but it wasn't to them, and if my "rights" were stepped upon, I did indeed speak up and asked for respect, and strangely that request was always honoured, because the people whose country I shared for a short while knew I respected them and their cultural beliefs and religion.

It was probably the best 11 years I spent, I learn't so much, I also taught others who had a very wrong perception of Western culture, and I never put one culture/belief system above another, they are all equal, and the sooner humankind learns that lesson the happier the world will be ... well that is how I see it. having rambled on about nothing LOL! I will say I do not, nor ever will condone the taking of another persons life, no human being has that power nor the right, and it doesn't matter where you come from, what you believe, no so called mainstream religious belief honours or calls for killing of another, so murder/honour killing etc is just plain out and out wrong!

Before i slip out of here, I must tell a little story of an Aussie expat new to Indonesia who had that arrogance of a 'white christian memsahib'. She decided to go to a local market, and asked me to go with her, so agreed, as I was concerned about her attitude and thought I may keep her "out of trouble". Anyway she had a spaghetti strap top on, and jeans, and yes that is fine in Aussie, but I told her in concentrated Muslim areas where there are a few Mosques, you must cover your arms and have a reasonable neckline ( you didn't have to have long sleeves, but at least a short sleeve top that was "modest". She refused to change, so i said so be it! Even her husband tried to tell her. Well with her cloak of arrogant superiority wrapped around her we set off, and things were going OK, (a few frowns had been cast her way) until we got to a part of the market where there was a Mushollah ( prayer room - an area where you could go to pray if you couldn't get to a Mosque). She very loudly commented on things like why do these women wear hijab/white robes to pray, a few other things, next thing I saw 3 or 4 young men and 2 young women walk towards her and they all spat on her, and told her she was dressed like a whore. She was really, upset as one would be, and I apologized to the Indonesians for her manners and the way she was dressed ( actually i was embarrased about her and for her) I quickly got her out of there and we went home. 2 days later she left Indonesia, as she couldn't stand the "muslim" restrictions or the people. So sad she could have learnt such a lot and grown to appreciate a culture steeped in history and come to understand Islam as well. But some people just don't want to understand. So you see, this woman was of my own culture but she was wrong and she was arrogant and thought she was better than the Indonesians and I was deeply ashamed of her. That may seem horrible of me to say that. But we were living in another culture and we expect those who enter our cultures to be respectful, and that was all the Indonesians expected as well. They were not nice spitting on her but she had been disrespectful, she should be thankful they didn't slap her, as that has happened to some disrespectful foreigners.

OK enough of my ramblings. I have a 1001 stories about my life in Indonesia, some good, some bad, but all very interesting and each added so much 'colour/ acceptance/tolerance and love' to my life.
~Mosaic

charity

hmm...i never said change occured in upheavals. i said that things change by small tweakings at a time...did i not???

i do not believe my reaction was uninformed, i think most my statements were common sense, no brainers, dont need a text book to surmise the obvious.

no i did not go all in depth, explain every detail or facet of my opinion, i had no idea that was even necessary.

but yes the website you cited, what do you think a website devoted to gendercide is going to say. in the fourth grade, when i wanted to change the world, i believed what those publications told me whether it be on human rights, global warming, politics, poverty...whatever, in fact even recently i quuoted a human rights pub...ohmy bad, i like to play devil's advocate, i'm flexible, but i believe what i believe...hold on, i hav yoga to go to. finish this later.

da Sage

Charity, this is your quote I was responding to (emphasis mine): "if peoples were being abused and oppressed for 2000 years, dont you think the time would come sooner or later that they would rebel? just because we cannot see the reasons why it would be a choice, does not mean that it is a forceful way of life."

My point was that the Muslim culture in the Middle East is often (not always!)abusive and oppressive to women, and that women as a group do not rebel in the same way that an ethnic or religious minority might (and have, throughout history). So the lack of a large, organized rebellion, is not indicative of the absence of oppression on woman.

I picked that website because it was on the first google page, and it mentioned how the King of Jordan himself must stoop to trying to tweak public opinion on honor killings (and the prosecution thereof)...he cannot simply lead a direct movement to change the law. That indicates a deep intrenchment of the idea of women as "not independent entities worthy of respect" - because sons of families are not subject to the same threat of honor killings, as the daughters are. I can get you another website, I just thought the bit about how the King (THE KING!) has to be so conservative in trying to make change was particularly illustrative of my point about the local culture.

As for devils advocate...it may not be that these honor killings are any more prevalent in Jordan than in other ME countries. It may be that they are better documented, and have received more international notice because of the nation's own attempts to address the issue and create change.

EDIT: Maybe you will like this Reuters article better:
Reuters AlertNet - JORDAN: Special report on honour killings

charity

in regards to oppression, murder was never on the subject. murder is not about oppression, that is some other human sickness irrelevant to culture or religion. yes yes i know there are fundamentalist and extremist who exercise murder or death as part of some religious doctrine, i'm not talking about "those" people. crazies exist everywhere.

all i'm saying is wearing head gear, made to cover up in public and different cultural/religious customs does not make for oppression. like i tried to say sometimes it is a sacrifice, willingly made in devotion to ones faith, family, and culture. these are things americans cannot understand.

dont get me wrong, if a woman chose to assert her independence from faith, family, and culture, she should have that right. anyone should. but the fact is for any given woman in the ME, in any number of situations, each decision to practice these customs or each decision to rebel against their own culture is a personal one. there are so many factors involved that NO ONE can wrap up a single culture into one and say all these women are oppressed. i have met, i have seen, i have known ME women...they are VERY spirited, VERY.

have you ever tried to give a cat a bath? thats a woman in general. they cant be forced to do too much against their will for too long. they just cant unless they too can benefit or see the advantage to their situation. maybe that is naive, i dont know.

da Sage

As far as I'm concerned, legal murder is oppression. And the legal requirement to cover one's head, is part of an oppressive system common in primarily Muslim countries. I never said "all ME women are oppressed", or "all ME are spiritless". But parts of Islam (like parts of Christianity) are regularly twisted to support oppressive, unfair legal systems. The system is oppressive, even if not all within it are downtrodden.

I'm a big fan of women wearing whatever they want on their heads...or not. I regularly wore headscarves for YEARS, and I was not oppressed...because I was free to wear them (or not) as I chose. Likewise, the Muslim women I've worked with in the past were not legally oppressed, because they were free to wear their hijab in public, and at work. I understand the choice to wear (or not to wear) a headscarf, even though I'm American. But when it becomes a legal requirement (or a practical requirement, to avoid harassment), and that's only the beginning of the restrictions on women, it's part of oppression. Because the restrictions and unfair treatment never stop at mandated hijab.

charity

i dont know. i guess i took something different from my experiences. dont get me wrong, i see areas of improvement but like has already been said, in time these things will be weened out, i do believe, by those who are immediately involved.

da Sage

Sorry, I missed the part where you said what Middle Eastern country you had visited?

charity

thats because i dont relay personal experiences online. opinions are one thing, my real life is not up for discussion. but yes i've been to 3.

gypsy8522

If our religion was that horrible 1.8 billion people would have abandoned it a long time ago. Surprizingly, Muslims now make up one fourth of the world population and are ever growing, and they are not going anywhere anytime soon, so why doesn't everyone just face it and get on with life.

Arab cultures are still highly bound with traditions, some of these have existed for thousands of years, long before Islam, and if "they" the Arab people want change they have to do it on their own. If the Jordanians or Saudi Arabians decided that they didn't like your way of life, or that they didn't like the way your judicial system is run, wouldn't you mind if they tried to interfere? The problem is that you are indoctrined from birth that your way of running society is correct, when it clearly isn't from the social problems we keep hearing about like street crimes and kids going to school and shooting at other kids. It is not up to you or "anyone" to tell people what they are or aren't supposed to do with their own society, especially if the person offering this "friendly advice" may not have any traditions or heritage to begin with, especially if this person is from a completely different region like Midwest, USA, never lived in any of those countries that she/he is criticizing, doesn't speak the language of the people she/he is criticizing, doesn't quite understand the religion, the culture or the mentality of the people she/he is criticizing, trust me any "efforts" in this case, (not necessarily "my" opinion, I am speaking from Arab/Middle Eastern people's point of view), regardless what one's intentions are, they are useles and comes off as bigotry.

I am assuming you haven't visited the Arab world, because the only country where it is a legal requirement for women to cover their heads is Saudi Arabia, so this law isn't common as you think it is. And if the laws in Saudi Arabia (the closest ally to the United States in the region) are bothering you, and you truly want to help change them, why don't you ask the US government to stop stealing or "buying" the Saudi people's "cheap oil" and in return keeping their dictators and oppressive regime in power- as long as it supports this oppression to save the interests of its own multi-national coorporations, the silent majority in Saudi Arabia who do want a change, and this includes WOMEN, will have the right to NOT have any say in anything whatsoever.

da Sage

I feel that you hear me saying
"1. Middle Eastern people are uniformly against women's (general and individual) rights,
2. the lives of all women in the Middle East are miserable,
3. Middle Eastern and Muslim women should not wear head scarves, and
4. there is something terribly wrong with wrong with Islam."

That is not what I am saying at all! Nor is it what I believe.

I am saying that
1. many Middle Eastern and majority-Muslim countries have laws that are outright biased against women, or their enforcement is biased against women, so as to make the laws irrelevant,
2. many women who are miserable in the Middle East, either because of cultural-specific reasons, or universal reasons, have fewer options to solve their problems because of culture-related legal restrictions on women, and practical restrictions on women.
3. Wearing head-gear (or not) should be a personal choice, unless you are on a construction site, or operating a vehicle.
4. There is something terribly wrong with the way that certain people wish to force everyone else to adhere to their own interpretation of Islam

EDIT: This post was in response to Charity.