Amazing video about women in Saudi Arabia - Page 18

TribalDancer · 02-20-2008, 03:21 AM

Thanks, guys!

Glad I am not the only Polyanna!

And Mosaic, yes, that is one thing I have turned around in my head for a good decade now about the idea of reincarnation: that the cycle of birth, growth, death, and cycling back into new life is all around us in nature. A tree dies and the tree becomes rich new soil for a bunch of little flowers, which are eaten and turned into fuel for bees and animals, which in turn provide nutrients for humans (I can't be Buddhist enough to go vegetarian--another blockage! Haha!), etc etc etc... Everything, in its way "becomes" something else when it passes on from life. So I possess the belief that energy is the same way, in that it of course doesn't stop, but may have the potential to become something else.

What I get hung up on is that I don't necessarily believe that energy is so cohesive as to reform, or pass in its entirety, right into the same thing that it once was. What I mean is, the idea of the human soul as energy passing into a new soul of a human...I don't necessarily buy that at this point in my explorations of life and faith. If I am to look at nature, and see that physical things scatter/erode and then become a part of a million different things, it is hard to believe, using it as a comparison, that my fundamental energy will not do the same, and scatter in many directions becoming many different things. It's hard for me to reconcile that somehow humans-as-energy retain cohesion enough to turn right back into another human again. Does that make sense...? So ultimately, I do believe that energetically, we humans "go on" in some form or another. But coming right back to Earth as a human again is that I have trouble really believing.

These are incomplete thoughts of mine which I hoped reading on Buddhism would help me reason out more fully, but I have found that much of what I read *assumes* that the reader already wants to believe, or already believes, in reincarnation. I am not invested in believing it or not, which makes me feel skeptical when a writer makes assumptions about why I may choose to come to and learn more about Buddhism--that is, assuming I already take the idea of reincarnation as a given.

I am sorry, I completely threadjacked this afternoon. But thanks for listening to my ramblings, anyway!

Mosaic · 02-20-2008, 11:11 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TribalDancer

Thanks, guys!

Glad I am not the only Polyanna!

And Mosaic, yes, that is one thing I have turned around in my head for a good decade now about the idea of reincarnation: that the cycle of birth, growth, death, and cycling back into new life is all around us in nature. A tree dies and the tree becomes rich new soil for a bunch of little flowers, which are eaten and turned into fuel for bees and animals, which in turn provide nutrients for humans (I can't be Buddhist enough to go vegetarian--another blockage! Haha!), etc etc etc... Everything, in its way "becomes" something else when it passes on from life. So I possess the belief that energy is the same way, in that it of course doesn't stop, but may have the potential to become something else.

What I get hung up on is that I don't necessarily believe that energy is so cohesive as to reform, or pass in its entirety, right into the same thing that it once was. What I mean is, the idea of the human soul as energy passing into a new soul of a human...I don't necessarily buy that at this point in my explorations of life and faith. If I am to look at nature, and see that physical things scatter/erode and then become a part of a million different things, it is hard to believe, using it as a comparison, that my fundamental energy will not do the same, and scatter in many directions becoming many different things. It's hard for me to reconcile that somehow humans-as-energy retain cohesion enough to turn right back into another human again. Does that make sense...? So ultimately, I do believe that energetically, we humans "go on" in some form or another. But coming right back to Earth as a human again is that I have trouble really believing.

These are incomplete thoughts of mine which I hoped reading on Buddhism would help me reason out more fully, but I have found that much of what I read *assumes* that the reader already wants to believe, or already believes, in reincarnation. I am not invested in believing it or not, which makes me feel skeptical when a writer makes assumptions about why I may choose to come to and learn more about Buddhism--that is, assuming I already take the idea of reincarnation as a given.

I am sorry, I completely threadjacked this afternoon. But thanks for listening to my ramblings, anyway!

OK, to high jack the thread a little bit more ....
I understand what you are saying, it is a great leap of "faith" to accept that the energetic form leaves the earth bound physical body, and remains fused in the same energy form. From my understanding of Buddhist beliefs, they don't actually advocate teaching "reincarnation" as most people have come to understand it. They prefer to use terms like transmigration & rebirth. From what I understand of the Buddhist belief of rebirth is - what survives and is reborn are "natural or acquired tendencies/habits" (one could say the energies or some of them you have formed/changed during the lifetimes, whether it be plant or animal. Usually, the word used in Buddhism is not "reincarnation" (meaning a new "embodiment" of the same soul), but "rebirth" (meaning a new birth with some aspects, carried over into a new birth and new body form). "Rebirth / transmigration" basically means: is without the passing of a soul into another body, because there is no unchanging soul which passes from life to life.
According to teachings, when we die our consciousness dissolves, and once dissolved there is no self, you have ceased to exist. Buddhists call this dissolution of the skandhas, as the skandhas dissolve, we re-unite with a state of connectedness with all things. So at the moment of death our energy reunites with the greater "whole", quite a mix of energies.
So what is reborn is not the blob of energy of the person you were, but bits and pieces of energy from various sources ( that is my understanding) - Basically a physical lifeform literally ceases to exist - totally and completely, it is pure energy that goes on, but joins the great melting pot, LOL!
I have read that the energy we release at death is like a flame, and when we die our flame gets passed on to another so that it can burn off the fuel of someone else. A flame is always in motion. It is a continuous process of transforming energy. And so are we. Nirvana, which is what a Buddhist aspires to actually means to extinguish the flame.So the cycle of rebirth is stopped - the passing of the flame of karma from life to life ceases when the energy strands become enlightened somehow. The interesting thing in Buddhism, the concept of soul doesn't exist, because the soul is consciousness, and dissolves into nothingness when an organism dies. All a bit confusing, but interesting.
So we could actually be a mix of trees, flowers, animals and humans etc. Eek! hope I haven't got any cockroach in me, I really dislike those things <shudder>

Funny how this thread has wandered through several cultures and religions ... Being able to discuss many things that open one's "world view" even more not only heightens understanding and tolerance of that world view, but brings all of us on the forum, I am sure, to a greater level of wisdom, understanding and respect for each other.

Humans are very interesting and extraordinarily complex creatures

Love you all!
~Mosaic

janaki · 02-20-2008, 11:23 PM

Now I am liking this thread!!! Good posts Mosaic and Tribaldancer.

KuteNurse · 02-21-2008, 05:43 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by A'isha Azar

Dear Kutenurse,
I think it is REALLY sick to teach little children that they are terrible sinners. No wonder so many people grow up so warped.
Regards,
A'isha

I can't disagree with you. Many religions teach guilt, not just Catholicism. My son never experienced guilt in Catholic school thank goodness. When he talks of his schooling, it is always positive. I believe the Catholic schools have turned around 100%. (Or pretty close. I think you will always get someone who probably shouldn't be teaching, no matter what school you chose.) It truly is a shame that children were ever taught to feel guilty, but I think it applies in many religions. I have a coworker who said to me today when another coworker mentioned What do you think of Hillary who is running for President, She said, "It just is not Godly for a woman to run for President." Evidentally her religion strictly follows exactly what the bible tells her because she mentioned when I said maybe someday we will see a female president in our lifetime. (Hillary was not who I wanted as a female President.) I personally think Margaret Thatcher did a remarkable job as Prime Minister of England. I really did not think it was unthinkable to have an American President as a female in our lifetime, nor did my coworker who spoke up.

I personally believe some religions go to far with believes etc...Even Catholics sometimes. Once the line is crossed between duty vs. being a good person, then I have a problem with it. Another close friend once mentioned to me that some Christians are hypocrits and I can't say she is wrong. I have seen people go to church for the wrong reasons, such as social status. I think all religions in general are not perfect. I just try to live being a good person, doing good for everyone and trying to be non-judgemental. (I know I am not perfect there. lol) But I try. I also try finding the gifts God made for me indivually and using them the best I can. Using these qualities along with attending Church almost weekly and trying to live as a Christian bring it all together for me.

I hope this makes sense because I really am dreadfully tired. It has been a gruelling day for me.

A'isha, I believe if we met at a workshop one day we would have an awful lot to talk about

Have a good night everyone.

KuteNurse · 02-21-2008, 06:07 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by belly_dancer

I am confused kute N... WHAT exactly are "we" fighting to keep IN schools & gov't??? & what exactly does religion have to do with having good morals?
& what religious traditions do we want "our" children to grow up continuing??

Belly Dancer,

I believe what "I" as an individual was looking for in a school for "my" son. He has since graduated from high school and he now attends a public college having had great results. Not "WE" as a whole. "I" was not fighting to keep anything in public schools because "I" chose to send my son to a private school that accomodated the believes "I" have and wanted my son to learn. Morals are learned at home from families "I" believe as "I" stated in another post on this thread. "I" just used "One" example of how the government in the US took away the ten commandments in front of a local court house for Mosaic for discussion. As for your statement "What religious traditions do we want "our" children to grow up continuing??" "I" am confused about. As we all know in America, there are so many cultures and different religions. "I" think that question would be impossible to answer for everyone by just "me". "I" personally think as a indivual in terms of "I" or "Me". If by chance "I" said "We", "I" probably meant my husband and "I", so "I" apologize if "I" made that mistake. ("I" don't remember stating that however.)

On this note, I am getting dizzy from typing parenthesis...lol I hope this clears things up for you and you have a great night

KuteNurse · 02-21-2008, 06:11 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by A'isha Azar

Dear Shanazel,
It's called the Confeteor and that's only part of it! I think it makes it really clear why many of us refer to ourselves as "Recovering Catholics" after we leave Holy Mother the Church. I have serious personal issues with Roman Catholicism, but my mother and one of my sisters and her family seem to find great solace in this religion, so I only can condemn it for myself. It seems to have something to offer people like Kutenurse and others, and I can appreciate that. Plus, them there Catholics did make some great music. Vivaldi was a priest!
Regards,
Aisha

I did not know Vivaldi was a priest! Thanks A'isha.

KuteNurse · 02-21-2008, 06:28 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by gypsy8522

A'isha,

My mother attended a nuns school when she was a girl. And some of the stories she told me were very similar to the things you said here. BTW, my mom is not a Christian.

Gypsy,

I have also heard the stories about Nuns treating children cruelly. My Mom was Catholic attending Catholic School. When she married my Dad, she became Lutheran, and later Presbyterian. My husband also attended Catholic school with better luck. His experience was having strictness taught by Nuns. I attended public school and I was treated poorly by teachers also. Once, a boy in grade school told the teacher I was making him laugh, when I was minding my own business. He wanted to get me into trouble because it was funny. I was terribly hurt when the teacher yelled at me being verbally abusive to me. I remember going home sobbing to my mom because I had done nothing wrong. Another teacher had us at her apartment to swim for a pool party. She told us (the students), sexually explicit details that we did not need to know at the age of 9. When I was in 6th grade, a male teacher, took boys out into the hall and hit their heads up against the coat hangers when they misbehaved in class.

My point is, I think it was how people behaved during that time. It is how teachers disciplined children with strictness and in some circumstances, abuse. From my experiences, I do not believe just the Nuns were cruel to their students, but some teachers from all different schools at that time. I am sure some of that still occurs to this day unfortunately, but I think from my experience since my son has been in school, that teacher's do teach with respect and not the harshness they used to teach with. I hope this makes sense to you and I hope things were not so bad for your mom. Have a nice night.

KuteNurse · 02-21-2008, 06:35 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mosaic

Kutenurse, Congrats to your son, he sounds like a wonderful young man. Catholic school here also have their religious component. That would be pretty standard everywhere for Catholic school I am sure. That is the purpose of them I believe, to not only educate but to maintain a reasonably high standard of knowledge in Catholicism. ( I am not catholic .. not by a long shot ) But I have a couple of friends with children attending catholic schools and knowledge of how the system works is pretty well known here in Oz at least).

My son will very likely attend a State University, that is very much standard here. There are only a couple of private Universities that I know of.

Thankyou for the kind words. My son is a growing into a good man who I am proud of. I only wish he would date more...He is a bit shy around women. He is my only child and I am hoping for Grandchilden some day! (Don't tell him I told you this.) lol Good for your son! Will he be graduating soon? I would love to visit Australia someday. I have been told by many people that Australians are much like Americans by their casualness and because they are laid-back.

I love snorkeling. Perhaps one day I will be able to view the Great Barrier Reef. Good night

KuteNurse · 02-21-2008, 06:50 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by janaki

A'isha darling,

I am with you on this.

I was 7 years when I went to a Catholic school in US. I still remember the prayer....we used to say it in the morning, before eating every meal and before going to bed. Like you A'isha, I speant a long time getting over it too. I come from a family of non religious people, well educated and well travelled people. My mum is neutral about religion but my brothers and my dad are atheists. I am fine with people with what ever religious faith they believe in as long as it is not assocated with dogmatism, war and crimes. Unfortunately, in real world this is what is happening in the name of the religion.

I also have problem with religious schools. I don't have a problem if children learn about different religions as part of their studies but I strongly oppose teachings of religious FAITH in schools. As a parent I would NEVER send my kids to a religious school where they are forced upon to beleive in a certain faith. Religious faith for me is a personal choice a person makes but not otherwise.

I also would like to add that this post is not intended to offend any one.

Janaki,

I am not offended in anyway. Religion is not for everyone. I would like to add that religion was never forced on my son. He was taught about Catholicism and he was taught to pray. Now that he is a college student, sometimes he choses to attend church with me while other times he doesn't. I do not make a big deal of it because he is finding himself. I do know what you mean because I have seen some parents force religion on their children. One instance is a coworker mentioned she would not let her child attend school, (She home-schools), because she doesn't want "Crap" being put into her child's head that doesn't belong there. lol She meant she didn't want her daughter to learn about other religions and other things outside of their religion. That was literally what she said to me and a co-worker. I have nothing against home-schooling. I think it is a wonderful way to educate children and I believe I read that home schooled children receive better grades and are very successful in life. I just wanted to add my experiences for you.

KuteNurse · 02-21-2008, 07:03 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TribalDancer

It is too bad that the examples of faith and religion expressed here represent the same extremes that the media portrays. Mine was very very different, and I think more typical of what role religion really plays in the life of the faithful. It just isn't as interesting a news item.

I was raised a mix of Presbyterian and Catholic. I went to Presbyterian church and bible study, and belonged to a youth group until high school. My youth group was incedible--I wish everyone were nurtured in their faith the way I was. Seeing examples of really practical and fun living as a person of faith, rather than just having lessons stuffed down my throat. We played games, watched and played in skits, read the bible and discussed our beliefs, laughed a lot. We had week long trips several times a year, to go skiing or camping or whathaveyou, and I garnered much support and love from the leaders of that group during tough pre-teen years.

I went to Catholic high school. The religious component was not that large, compared to what some seem to experience--depends a LOT on the school itself. It's very individual, so you can't lump all Catholic schools in the same basket. The impetus for sending me after a lifetime of public school was less religion (though my Catholic grandparents were thrilled) and more the superior honors program, which I was in, and smaller class sizes. Yes, I had a class on religion at every grade, but it was another component of a well-rounded education, not guilt or mind control. One class, for instance, was a comparative religion class in which we were taught about many other religions and our shared history of faith and ritual. We were taught where Catholicism got its roots for it's practices and holidays--from other religions--and taught to respect and have an interest in other faiths. I had to learn Hail Mary and say the Lord's Prayer a lot, but I never had to go to confession, or had any nun or priest do anything untoward or violent. We did not have uniforms, but instead a dress-code (no logos or words on shirts, boys had to have collars on their shirts, girls couldn't wear skirts more than an inch above the knee--things I wish public schools had as rules, frankly!)

98% of our graduation class went on to higher education. The only statistic I roll my eyes at is how many of them married and immediately started having many many babies in college or right after. Yeah, that whole Catholics-must-procreate thing was very ingrained in some families--in some cases some well known families in school had a kid in almost every grade, with several graduated, and some pulling up the rear. LOL

Today, I don't consider myself religious. I consider myself a person of faith--a belief in a higher power. And I believe there are many paths to "heaven", whatever that means. So long as the "endgoal" is something that motivates you to make this life a better one for yourself and those around you, the idea of "rewards in heaven" is fine with me. Any practice which makes someone more loving, more thoughtful (prayerful?), feel more connected to those around them, and strive to be an example of kindness and honesty in the world is worth it to me. Just because some people twist those altruistic lessons into something ugly or manipulative does not diminish the basic message itself, in my mind. Hence a feeling that I have more truck with faith (belief in connective power) than religion (the engine that can sometimes be twisted by its leaders)...but don't dismiss either based on the bad apples that always make the "best stories".

I have been reading a lot on Buddhism and resonate most with it's kind of pantheistic energy--a religion that embraces all religions, has mighty respect for the world around them, believes in the interconnectedness of all things...these are beliefs I fully feel in my heart without having to have been told them. They "feel like truth" to me, if that makes sense. But I can't get past the reincarnation thing just yet...I don't know whether I believe in that or not, and being a major tenet of the faith, I can't rightly consider myself Buddhist.

So I find that religion can be a gentle thing. A beautiful thing. A supportive and nurturing part of one's life. It saddens me that so many experience the extremist and tunnel-visioned practitioners, and believe that is the only way faith can be expressed in a religious context. I am here to say it's not, and painting all religion with that broad brush frustrates me. I don't expect any and every person to have faith or embrace religion. But I would hope they have open minds enough to know that not all religious/faithful people and experiences mirror their own; and instead of reacting with revulsion to the idea, or decide it is because someone has blinders on or was misled, that they look a the PERSON and say, "They must have a reason for feeling as they do. And I respect that experience and belief that is not the same as mine." I certainly have no disdain for people who believe there is no god/God/goddess/flying spaghetti monster. I don't think they are lesser or foolish. I just know their experiences have been different than mine, and what I feel and believe is based on what I have found in my travels, just as yours are a reflection of what you have encountered. And ultimately, the God I believe in truly can see our hearts, and would never deny "heaven" to a good person, no matter what they believe or not here on earth. "Heaven" is a place that collects all the "souls" of generosity, love, and a genuine desire to better yourself and the world around you, and has great capacity for forgiveness for the many (many! huge!) missteps we humans inevitably make along the way. I don't think someone has to belive X, Y, Z, and attend Yaddayadda church a bazillion times in a lifetime to "qualify" for some "grand prize". LOL

But that's just my Pollyanna view of faith and religion...

In short, can't we all get along? LOL

WOW!

I am totally in awe of your beautiful description of your experiences. You do have some very credible points...That shouldn't we all get along? I totally believe that. No matter what religion, nationality, or culture we come from, we all have special gifts and we have different views on life. I would just like to say I am sorry if I hurt anyone's feelings by stating my own views. Everyone is here on this forum because of our love of dancing and I think that is a special gift in itself.

02-20-2008, 03:21 AM	#171 (permalink)
TribalDancer Moderator Join Date: Jul 2006 Location: Seattle, WA Posts: 313	Thanks, guys! Glad I am not the only Polyanna! And Mosaic, yes, that is one thing I have turned around in my head for a good decade now about the idea of reincarnation: that the cycle of birth, growth, death, and cycling back into new life is all around us in nature. A tree dies and the tree becomes rich new soil for a bunch of little flowers, which are eaten and turned into fuel for bees and animals, which in turn provide nutrients for humans (I can't be Buddhist enough to go vegetarian--another blockage! Haha!), etc etc etc... Everything, in its way "becomes" something else when it passes on from life. So I possess the belief that energy is the same way, in that it of course doesn't stop, but may have the potential to become something else. What I get hung up on is that I don't necessarily believe that energy is so cohesive as to reform, or pass in its entirety, right into the same thing that it once was. What I mean is, the idea of the human soul as energy passing into a new soul of a human...I don't necessarily buy that at this point in my explorations of life and faith. If I am to look at nature, and see that physical things scatter/erode and then become a part of a million different things, it is hard to believe, using it as a comparison, that my fundamental energy will not do the same, and scatter in many directions becoming many different things. It's hard for me to reconcile that somehow humans-as-energy retain cohesion enough to turn right back into another human again. Does that make sense...? So ultimately, I do believe that energetically, we humans "go on" in some form or another. But coming right back to Earth as a human again is that I have trouble really believing. These are incomplete thoughts of mine which I hoped reading on Buddhism would help me reason out more fully, but I have found that much of what I read assumes that the reader already wants to believe, or already believes, in reincarnation. I am not invested in believing it or not, which makes me feel skeptical when a writer makes assumptions about why I may choose to come to and learn more about Buddhism--that is, assuming I already take the idea of reincarnation as a given. I am sorry, I completely threadjacked this afternoon. But thanks for listening to my ramblings, anyway!

02-20-2008, 11:23 PM	#173 (permalink)
janaki V.I.P. Join Date: Feb 2007 Location: hong kong Posts: 1,211	Now I am liking this thread!!! Good posts Mosaic and Tribaldancer.