How important is it? - Page 3

Tracey · 10-30-2007, 12:18 PM

Interesting debate, as ever with subjects surrounding dance or creativity in general one can only come from a personal perspective.
For me from my very first trip back in 97 to now, going living eating breathing suffocating Cairo and Egypt in the broader sense, has become my drive and led me to the place I am now in my dance.
It is going to high end, low end nightclubs to watch not just the dancer but the band (oh the band). To see if any of that elusive understanding, interpretation will stick, for me it's my food .
I can say with my hand on my heart I am very very lucky for in the years I have been visiting Cairo I have seen Fifi four times a young unknown Dandash who made me cry ( I do that a lot) I have worked at Ahlan wa Sahlan four times and seen some of Rhanda and Dina's best ever performances, had dance lessons from the Bedouin in Bahariya oh and on and on. And yet I am always excited by what the next trip will bring and that is not just bling but a new experience of the dance which I love and has become such a large part of my life.
Tracey

Aziyade · 10-30-2007, 01:41 PM

For me, I'm torn right now between thinking I should go on one of the dance tours, or go and just SEE the place itself.

I was talking to a Turkish folk dance instructor and he told me to NOT go on the dance tours, but rather to go and see the country itself. That I would get more out of just BEING there and experiencing the place, rather than taking dance classes all day long.

Part of me wants to go to Ahlan Wa Sahlan so bad !!!!! but all of what I've heard makes me wonder if that particular festival is really worth it. If you're in class with 200 other people, can barely even SEE the instructor, and don't really get a chance to see the sites and stuff.

But then Tracey comes along and makes me really want to be part of the Ahlan Wa Sahlan experience .... sigh.

As to the Spanish horse manure reference -- in the south of Spain, horses are still commonly ridden places. The police are also mounted. They wash the streets down with water in the early evenings to wash away the manure. I wasn't complaining about the smell -- but it does give Seville a very unique "essence" that you don't really get until you're there.

Every place is like that. Travel writers call it "local color" but the more you experience it, the more you understand the local culture. I don't know how much more about flamenco rhythms I was able to absorb, but something about that experience made the whole idea of flamenco BIGGER and more grand for me. That's what I would hope to capture by going to Egypt. I'm just wondering if going on a regular tour would give me the same feeling as AWS.

There's another festival there too, isn't there? Aida Nour organizes it? Or am I confused?

Suheir · 10-30-2007, 01:50 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Aziyade

There's another festival there too, isn't there? Aida Nour organizes it? Or am I confused?

It's the Nile Group Festival. Maria Aya is our resident specialist, she is addicted! Yes, Aida is one of the organisers. Entertainment - Calendar

Aisha Azar · 10-30-2007, 01:56 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Aziyade

For me, I'm torn right now between thinking I should go on one of the dance tours, or go and just SEE the place itself.

I was talking to a Turkish folk dance instructor and he told me to NOT go on the dance tours, but rather to go and see the country itself. That I would get more out of just BEING there and experiencing the place, rather than taking dance classes all day long.

Part of me wants to go to Ahlan Wa Sahlan so bad !!!!! but all of what I've heard makes me wonder if that particular festival is really worth it. If you're in class with 200 other people, can barely even SEE the instructor, and don't really get a chance to see the sites and stuff.

But then Tracey comes along and makes me really want to be part of the Ahlan Wa Sahlan experience .... sigh.

As to the Spanish horse manure reference -- in the south of Spain, horses are still commonly ridden places. The police are also mounted. They wash the streets down with water in the early evenings to wash away the manure. I wasn't complaining about the smell -- but it does give Seville a very unique "essence" that you don't really get until you're there.

Every place is like that. Travel writers call it "local color" but the more you experience it, the more you understand the local culture. I don't know how much more about flamenco rhythms I was able to absorb, but something about that experience made the whole idea of flamenco BIGGER and more grand for me. That's what I would hope to capture by going to Egypt. I'm just wondering if going on a regular tour would give me the same feeling as AWS.

There's another festival there too, isn't there? Aida Nour organizes it? Or am I confused?

Dear Aziyade,
Having spent my entire childhood as a military brat who did not spend more than two years ever in one place, travel is not really a big draw for me. ( I went to three different high schools in a year once, one for three whole days!!!) And I find that in order for people to really appreciate local color, they must first have some kind of affinity for the culture in which they find themselves.
I would agree with the guy who said go to the country, but not on the tour. The key to any dance is the people from whom it springs!!
My point is that there are numerous ways to assimilate culture and understanding of any given dance form or other cultural offering. One can do great Japanese pottery, I hear, even without going to Japan, but it helps to study with a Japanese master, have Japanese friends, eat Japanese food, have an understanding of why one piece is a tea vessel while another might hold saki, etc.
Regards,
A'isha

Eshta · 10-30-2007, 07:16 PM

To copy Ai'sha's method, answers in context!:

Quote:

Originally Posted by lizaj

Eshta:rather than a bunch of egoists using the term "egyptian" when they really mean "lazy" and is in fact no closer to Egyptian style belly dance, or even belly dance of any kind in some cases, than it is to any other style. Guess it's like breeding pedigrees: once you let the mongrel in, it's difficult to breed it out

Perhaps you would like to illuminate me as to the London scene, of which I know nothing. The teachers of Egyptian style I know seem to work very hard to improve what we do..and for lazy I think we usually say the Egyptian dancer make everything look effortless even though we know how hard they have worked to get to that standard. Name names for the I don't bother to attend these people's workshops.What is going on darn sarf?

Eshta: From what I've heard, the further north you go in the UK, the better the dancing gets, although it's not that it's bad daaan Saaath. I've also noticed a significant improvement over the last few years. But my blood does boil (and I believe boiled over in writing the above) at the volume of people teaching who don't know enough themselves and aren't doing anything to further their education. I have also attended classes where I've been told nonsense: for example that Egyptians don't dance on toes, only flat footed because it's earthier - WTF?! That's the kind of laziness I'm referring to. I certainly don't find Egyptian belly dance lazy in the slightest!!

and up here we find most Arab communities open and friendly although quite obviously they are wary of the backlash some Muslim communities felt after 9/11 and London bombings. In every community you get some who don't welcome intrusion, I suppose they might be fearful we might grab their men and breed ...er ...was it mongrels

Eshta: Yes, most are friendly here too but maybe it's the London effect, people are a bit more distant around here, and I can really feel the change when I talk to Arabs now than pre 9/11 and especially 7/7.

You know that last sentence is :

confused: like mongrels they tend to be smart and loyal and let's face it most Brits are mongrels

Eshta: Me too, but not if you're trying to breed a purebreed/pedigree

which I believe is the theme of the thread: a pedigree Egyptian style!

So if you apply that to the dance scene which is constantly evolving...elements which may seem alien at one time do not later on. Do we have to take the ballet infulence out of belly dance, do we lose the andalouse, do you not want to include folkloric styles? I see Turkish dancers dancing very much in an Egyptian style and Turkish elements in Egyptian style dancers, folkloric "episodes" in a danse orientale set..does it matter if it is well done?

Eshta: Not sure where I stand on this one yet, still deliberating over where the line is drawn, however the thread that started the topic referred specifically to Egyptian style, hence why I focussed on that in particular. I think the question of "does it matter if it is well done" has been a consistent theme underlying many debates on this forum, none of which I've engaged in as I'm still working out my views in my own mind!

lizaj · 10-31-2007, 10:13 AM

Oh I so agree about "the rest on their laurels types"...don't worry they exist up here but fortunately we do have a fair number of well known teachers who take every opportunity to keep learningthemselves. To me that is what's unforgiveable that you get to teach and think mmmm No one can teach me anything now!I know there are constraints of cash flow, family committments for some but as you say, you cannot go on in class telling your students you are any kind of expert if you don't make some sort of effort to update.
They are so good these people at reckoning they know it all instead of being realistic with their students. I teach the way I have been taught and apart from some very obvious basics, I tell them there are dancers out there doing it differently to me and it ain't necessarily wrong!

Kashmir · 11-09-2007, 12:25 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by A'isha Azar

Dear Aziyade,
I would agree with the guy who said go to the country, but not on the tour. The key to any dance is the people from whom it springs!!
My point is that there are numerous ways to assimilate culture and understanding of any given dance form or other cultural offering. One can do great Japanese pottery, I hear, even without going to Japan, but it helps to study with a Japanese master, have Japanese friends, eat Japanese food, have an understanding of why one piece is a tea vessel while another might hold saki, etc.
Regards,
A'isha

Depends on the tour. I went with an Australian Egyptian and a bunch of dancers. The tour was slanted to getting to see lots of dance rather than monuments (although we saw quite a bit any way). We avoided the big hotel chains and stayed in good hotels that also catered for locals (as a result a couple were dry which annoyed some people who couldn't live without booze for a few days). We got to meet some of Ali's friends and family and visit some non-tourist areas. Yet, we were relatively safe, had our food, accomodation and transport arranged and bribes paid.

Kharmine · 11-26-2007, 05:38 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kashmir

Depends on the tour. I went with an Australian Egyptian and a bunch of dancers. The tour was slanted to getting to see lots of dance rather than monuments (although we saw quite a bit any way). We avoided the big hotel chains and stayed in good hotels that also catered for locals (as a result a couple were dry which annoyed some people who couldn't live without booze for a few days). We got to meet some of Ali's friends and family and visit some non-tourist areas. Yet, we were relatively safe, had our food, accomodation and transport arranged and bribes paid.

I'd love that kind of tour, particularly as the security issue concerns me.

Raqs sharqi is the mother of all belly dance -- as such, learning it in Egypt from good teachers would be highly useful for anyone of any belly dance style, IMHO. And, um, yes, folks, that includes "cabaret" style - why wouldn't it? I doubt the Egyptians themselves make any such false distinctions when teaching people of different backgrounds -- or asking them to dance.

No matter what our resources are around us, there's no experience like the hands-on and the up-front. We can learn a lot in various ways in our own little corners of the world, but firsthand experience done right beats the vicarious and secondhand any time.

Aisha Azar · 11-26-2007, 01:06 PM

The thing is that many Egyptian dancers don't have first hand experience being a sick tourist in a country far from home, or being appalled when they see people burn up a dog, or being frightened when a group of beggars jumps on their car, or seeing a little kid with paralyzed legs dragging himself along the street on a piece of cardboard, or not being able to brush their teeth with tap water, or not having any ice in their drinks or eating any fresh vegetables, etc. when they are in Egypt. Pretty hard to concentrate on dance when all that is going on. Everything that I mentioned here has been in the experience of people that I know who visit Egypt, by the way.
A'isha Azar

lizaj · 11-26-2007, 06:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by A'isha Azar

The thing is that many Egyptian dancers don't have first hand experience being a sick tourist in a country far from home, or being appalled when they see people burn up a dog, or being frightened when a group of beggars jumps on their car, or seeing a little kid with paralyzed legs dragging himself along the street on a piece of cardboard, or not being able to brush their teeth with tap water, or not having any ice in their drinks or eating any fresh vegetables, etc. when they are in Egypt. Pretty hard to concentrate on dance when all that is going on. Everything that I mentioned here has been in the experience of people that I know who visit Egypt, by the way.
A'isha Azar

It's awful for people to have such experiences but when taken ill overseas if you are well insured you usually get treated in private clinics with very high standards. I was unlucky enough to contract bacterial pnemonia in Turkey and have nothing but praise for the treatment and care I received form wonderful doctors and nurses in the Antalya hospital and who undoubtably saved my life. I was in a hospital attended by everyone local and foreigner alike and standards were extremely high in care and hygeine.
It's not stopped me from visiting Egypt Morocco and Tunisia. If you do worry I suppose it's best to stay at home but you will miss out. I'm 60 and do have certain health issues, luckily not major and wouldn't miss out on going again to these countries.

And yes I agree you see sights you'd rather not - extreme poverty but that just makes me more grateful for my privaleged life of relative comfort here in the UK. As a vegetarian I found the butchers shops of North Africa somewhat daunting. I hate flies, beggars with missing limbs etc are very distressing. Yes it's all there! But you will see charity being handed out willingly by local Moslems living according to the faith if not by tourists.
What we see as neglect and cruelty to animals is a sad fact of life but it's balanced by mostly welcoming and hospitable people because that's what their religion and culture demands of them. And also balanced by a fantastic past, historical sights such as those of ancient Egypt and Islamic architecture, the craftsmanship in the souks, the food.
Yes it's all around but so is music and dance and laughter. An early traveller described Cairo as the smiling city and I found a tremendous lot of smiling going on. And I know 2 British dancers who have made their lives in Egypt and have no intention of returning.

10-30-2007, 12:18 PM	#21 (permalink)
Tracey Junior Member Join Date: Oct 2007 Location: Manchester UK Posts: 12	For me it was the beginning Interesting debate, as ever with subjects surrounding dance or creativity in general one can only come from a personal perspective. For me from my very first trip back in 97 to now, going living eating breathing suffocating Cairo and Egypt in the broader sense, has become my drive and led me to the place I am now in my dance. It is going to high end, low end nightclubs to watch not just the dancer but the band (oh the band). To see if any of that elusive understanding, interpretation will stick, for me it's my food . I can say with my hand on my heart I am very very lucky for in the years I have been visiting Cairo I have seen Fifi four times a young unknown Dandash who made me cry ( I do that a lot) I have worked at Ahlan wa Sahlan four times and seen some of Rhanda and Dina's best ever performances, had dance lessons from the Bedouin in Bahariya oh and on and on. And yet I am always excited by what the next trip will bring and that is not just bling but a new experience of the dance which I love and has become such a large part of my life. Tracey

11-26-2007, 01:06 PM	#29 (permalink)
Aisha Azar Moderator Join Date: Jul 2006 Location: Pacific Northwest USA Posts: 3,992	Dance The thing is that many Egyptian dancers don't have first hand experience being a sick tourist in a country far from home, or being appalled when they see people burn up a dog, or being frightened when a group of beggars jumps on their car, or seeing a little kid with paralyzed legs dragging himself along the street on a piece of cardboard, or not being able to brush their teeth with tap water, or not having any ice in their drinks or eating any fresh vegetables, etc. when they are in Egypt. Pretty hard to concentrate on dance when all that is going on. Everything that I mentioned here has been in the experience of people that I know who visit Egypt, by the way. A'isha Azar

10-30-2007, 01:41 PM	#22 (permalink)
Aziyade V.I.P. Join Date: Jul 2006 Location: Cornfields of Evansville Indiana. Posts: 1,049	For me, I'm torn right now between thinking I should go on one of the dance tours, or go and just SEE the place itself. I was talking to a Turkish folk dance instructor and he told me to NOT go on the dance tours, but rather to go and see the country itself. That I would get more out of just BEING there and experiencing the place, rather than taking dance classes all day long. Part of me wants to go to Ahlan Wa Sahlan so bad !!!!! but all of what I've heard makes me wonder if that particular festival is really worth it. If you're in class with 200 other people, can barely even SEE the instructor, and don't really get a chance to see the sites and stuff. But then Tracey comes along and makes me really want to be part of the Ahlan Wa Sahlan experience .... sigh. As to the Spanish horse manure reference -- in the south of Spain, horses are still commonly ridden places. The police are also mounted. They wash the streets down with water in the early evenings to wash away the manure. I wasn't complaining about the smell -- but it does give Seville a very unique "essence" that you don't really get until you're there. Every place is like that. Travel writers call it "local color" but the more you experience it, the more you understand the local culture. I don't know how much more about flamenco rhythms I was able to absorb, but something about that experience made the whole idea of flamenco BIGGER and more grand for me. That's what I would hope to capture by going to Egypt. I'm just wondering if going on a regular tour would give me the same feeling as AWS. There's another festival there too, isn't there? Aida Nour organizes it? Or am I confused?

10-31-2007, 10:13 AM	#26 (permalink)
lizaj Senior Member Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: UK Posts: 853	Oh I so agree about "the rest on their laurels types"...don't worry they exist up here but fortunately we do have a fair number of well known teachers who take every opportunity to keep learningthemselves. To me that is what's unforgiveable that you get to teach and think mmmm No one can teach me anything now!I know there are constraints of cash flow, family committments for some but as you say, you cannot go on in class telling your students you are any kind of expert if you don't make some sort of effort to update. They are so good these people at reckoning they know it all instead of being realistic with their students. I teach the way I have been taught and apart from some very obvious basics, I tell them there are dancers out there doing it differently to me and it ain't necessarily wrong!