lizaj

I think it was I using the term.. I teach my students what I have been taught by Khaled Mahmoud who has been studying with Aida or Raqia thus cascading knowledge and technique.
Sorry it's term used quite regularly in the UK for passing down of info and tuition so what you have learnt is not from a master or the hore's mouth but from people who have and so on...I always assumed it was another term we had gained from the US!

Aisha Azar

Dear Lisaj,
Thanks, now I understand. So, it is like when I study with Fifi or Mouna, take the time to really understand what I leanred and then pass it on to my students.
As for comments about needing to travel to the countries of origin to learn the dance, I would say that many people have been to countries of origin and still not learned the dance.It can help a person to have an understanding of the people and cultures from which the dances originate if people go with a very open mind. This is not always possible. Members of the BDSS who have gone do not look the least bit Egyptian. I have lived in many different locations and what I took away with me from them does not make me any more like the people who live there, or have any more understanding of them. Just because I lived on Newfoundland for two years does not mean I understand the soul of a Newfie!! It is about acceptance a lot of the time. It never hurts to travel to countries of origin, certainly, but there are other legitimate ways to learn.
Regards,
A'isha

Eshta

Erm, you didn't, I was just making a point that it seems a lot of dancers view Cairo (for example) as some holy grail but it will only be relevant for some dancers. For example, the Ahlan wa Sahlan festival confuses me as I get the impression that it's very much an AmCab oriented festival but held in Cairo - although having never been, i am open to corrections.

I don't personally use youtube for tuition, but it's granted me access to more clips of the legends of Egypt than my dvd allowance would ever have stretched to, or would have ever uncovered. I'm currently studying Naima Akef in depth and although my DVD collection has Aziza and the two clips from Tamra Henna, I've found so many more clips through youtube. there's a lot of sorting the wheat from the chaff, not a good place for a beginner!!

I should have been clearer, I think the key benefit to be derived from a trip to the home country is an insight into the culture, but of course the type of holiday you go on will determine whether you see that or not! My first trip to Cairo was with a highly knowledgeable man who had previously lived there and spoke the language fluently, and was keen to educate me about the culture. In those two weeks I learnt more about Egyptian culture and society than I could have done in 10 years of annual trips staying in the Hilton and visiting the pyramids every day! And in Ai'sha's case, if you are surrounded by arabs who 'let you in' and share their culture with you, you don't need to ever leave home!

Sadly, and frankly understandably, I notice that at least in London I'm treated with suspicion when I talk to arabs and ask questions, as a community they've become a lot more closed since the hatred and ignorance this war on terror has stirred up.

I suppose the cascading of an Egyptian style can theoretically work, but only if there is a solid base of accurately labelled, competent teachers who all teach a reasonably consistent style, rather than a bunch of egoists using the term "egyptian" when they really mean "lazy" and is in fact no closer to Egyptian style belly dance, or even belly dance of any kind in some cases, than it is to any other style. Guess it's like breeding pedigrees: once you let the mongrel in, it's difficult to breed it out !

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Saqarah - London's monthly Belly Dance Hafla!

Aisha Azar

Dear Eshta,
So beautifully stated!! I'm on my way to give you some well deserved Rep!
Regards,
A'isha

Aziyade

I am planning to go to Egypt, possibly this summer, lots of things depending.

I am also planning to go to Turkey.

I want to go both places for fun, but also to get a sense of what the dancing is like "in situ" -- in the culture. I'm not really sure I want to shell out a lot for Ahlan Wa Sahlan, though, especially after some of what I've been hearing about it. I think I might be better off going down to Miami and Dallas and studying with Dina and Raqia etc here, in a smaller setting.

One thing I noticed a long time ago was that two people can get something COMPLETELY different out of a workshop, and then they can go home and teach it completely differently. This is why I don't usually go to "Dina Technique" workshops with people who aren't Dina. Or why I choose to study with Suhaila herself instead of someone who has studied with her.

Years ago, Raqia Hassan taught a choreography in California at an ICMED event. I bought the video. A few years ago I was at a major workshop and the American instructor (who most people credit as being a master of Egyptian style) taught the same choreography, giving all rights and notices and such that it was Raqia's choreo.

I was surprised at how different the two choreos ended up being. I still go back and look at the American instructor's performance of it and try to analyze what she did that made it look so different from Raqia's performance. (For one, she "cleaned up" the rough edges that Raqia has on some of her movements -- but that's just Raqia!!)

Cascading information is fine in many ways, but I think the subtleties can easily be lost with each transmission. I trust Artemis Mourat to teach me Turkish Romany dance, but I'll bet I would get a lot out of going over there and learning from the source.

I know personally Flamenco in America and Flamenco in Spain have completely different "essences." It's one thing to listen to a CD here. It's quite another to sit outside in the ungodly heat, the wet streets stinking of horse manure, and listening to the old guy at the table screech out a song about living in prison, as though it were just something everybody goes through in their lives. :O

belly_dancer

YES..... isn't it!!!!..... one of the things I miss in LIVE music........

Kharmine

Oh, yes, this is so true! Any time I've heard of a serious American flamenco, whether a musician or dancer, that person has usually traveled to Spain to study and absorb culture firsthand. Sure, they can see a lotta touristy crap over there, but if they're careful, persistent and open-minded they can find the essence, the duende that may be even more elusive here.

We are born with very individual filters, and I doubt any two people could have exactly the same reactions and perceptions even while sharing the same experiences. That's why we can't rely only on other people's experiences for our knowledge.

It's vitally important to listen to and respect the experiences of others, of course, but for some things it just doesn't beat that firsthand exposure.

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What if the hokey pokey is really what it's all about?

Aisha Azar

Response below. The computer will not let me do it my way!!!

lizaj

Eshta:rather than a bunch of egoists using the term "egyptian" when they really mean "lazy" and is in fact no closer to Egyptian style belly dance, or even belly dance of any kind in some cases, than it is to any other style. Guess it's like breeding pedigrees: once you let the mongrel in, it's difficult to breed it out


Perhaps you would like to illuminate me as to the London scene, of which I know nothing. The teachers of Egyptian style I know seem to work very hard to improve what we do..and for lazy I think we usually say the Egyptian dancer make everything look effortless even though we know how hard they have worked to get to that standard. Name names for the I don't bother to attend these people's workshops.What is going on darn sarf?

and up here we find most Arab communities open and friendly although quite obviously they are wary of the backlash some Muslim communities felt after 9/11 and London bombings. In every community you get some who don't welcome intrusion, I suppose they might be fearful we might grab their men and breed ...er ...was it mongrels

You know that last sentence is : confused: like mongrels they tend to be smart and loyal and let's face it most Brits are mongrels
So if you apply that to the dance scene which is constantly evolving...elements which may seem alien at one time do not later on. Do we have to take the ballet infulence out of belly dance, do we lose the andalouse, do you not want to include folkloric styles? I see Turkish dancers dancing very much in an Egyptian style and Turkish elements in Egyptian style dancers, folkloric "episodes" in a danse orientale set..does it matter if it is well done?

lizaj

mmmm Flamenco and horse sh*t

I think especially the parts of Spain we all visit these days are all rather more sophisticated and well-heeled these days. That's probably why you get the flashy touristy flamenco and no that doesn't compare to the Gypsy dancers and musicians you can be lucky enough to see in bars in Andalusia or the Sevillianas who regularly come on tour to a theatre near us.
No ,they have the something lacking in the polished theatrical or tacky light tourist display..it's called passion.