gypsy8522

nicknack,

Israel is in the heart of an Arab/Middle Eastern region, of course there will be Middle Eastern people living in that area who brought their heritage and tradition with them. This isn't related to the original topic and your response about "jewish culture" and sephardi jewish "belly dancing". In the Arab world we say that anything Middle Eastern or from neighbouring eastern countries is sharqi, eastern. We are an eastern society, whether our community is made up of jews, muslims or christians, and this includes all of the different sects.

I don't know where you got that statistic, that over half of the jewish population in Israel is from Middle Eastern origin. Let us assume it is true, this could be due to different reasons, one of them is that more non-Middle Eastern jews are leaving Israel. They are either going back to Europe where they came from or immigrating to somewhere else. I know there is over 4 million palestinians living in Israel, they are muslims and christians who are being forced out of their homes but have got no place to go to since Arab countries have become saturated from taking in refugees. There is also the "Israeli Arabs" these are the few people who got to stay after the formation of Israel in 1948, they are named as such because they hold Israeli passports and since Israel denies there is such thing as palestine, they cannot call them "palestinian arabs". And then there are the Israeli jews from Middle Eastern origin. Now if you bundle up all these groups together you will get a huge population who besides the Middle Eastern roots they have in common, they are also treated like second class citizens. Either way, the jewish population in Israel does not represent "jewish culture" as there are more jews living OUTSIDE Israel, many that are from United States, Russia, UK, France and other western countries. These people do not have any relation with Middle Eastern culture.

I agree with you and I suspect there is no law in the torah saying you can't sing or dance, just like there isn't one soorah in the qura'an that says dancing or singing is haram. but when you ask a religous person, be it a Rabbi, Priest, or Imam if it is ok to dance half naked infront of men, what do you expect that the answer will be? But your response about jewish law is changing topic because this isn't what I was refering to when I quoted the Rabbi. I was refering to the Rabbi's halachic ruling that belly dancing is forbidden because it comes from cheap and defective cultures, your first response is a contradiction of what he is saying.

Kharmine

Y'know, Gypsy, I'm sure that living where you are you have not only a different perspective but access to different resources, and those advantages. no doubt, can be invaluable to your research.

However, you know very little about me. And if you haven't read a lot of my posts on this forum you don't anything about how I reached my conclusions so I would gently ask you to please try to find out before you make assumptions.

Unfortunately, I only have access to what's been published in print and online in English, including translations, but I have taken great pains to seek as much credible information as possible. I've used my education (BA journalism, MFA prose), and my training and experience as a professional journalist for more than 30 years to research sources. I am way too old, and old-fashioned, to rely strictly on hearsay and the Internet!

Everything I've found, from personal anecdotes to scholarly articles, is checked and verified as much as possible in coming to my conclusions. If I think something is dubious or unverified, I say so. If it seems to have several credible sources that back it up, I say so. I don't claim to be an authority or to have the last word. But I do know how to do scholarly research.

There are many posts on this forum where I've listed some of my print sources, but I realize that it's kind of hard to sort through past threads so I'll note a few of the best here:

"A Trade Like Any Other: Female Singers & Dancers in Egypt" (University of Texas Press, 1995) by Karin van Nieuwkerk, a Dutch anthropologist who did her fieldwork in Egypt.

"Belly Dance: Orientalism, Transnationalism & Harem Fantasy" (Mazda Publishers, 2005), edited by Antony Shay and Barbara Sellers-Young
-- the chapter on the early belly dance scene in the United States, "A Night in the Orient: The Middle Eastern Nightclub in America", is especially helpful. It was written by Anne Rassmussen, associate professor of ethnomusicology at The College of William & Mary, Williamsburg, Virginia, who is director of the William & Mary Middle Eastern Music Ensemble.

"Mass Mediations: New Approaches to Popular Culture in the Middle East and Beyond" (University of California Press, 2000), by Walter Armbrust, visiting assistant professor at The Center for Contemporary Arab Studies, Georgetown University, Washington, D.C.

"The Belly Dance" (Horizon Magazine, Spring 1966, Vol. VIII, No.) by Morroe Berger, who died in 1981. He was a distinguished scholar and writer on various Middle Eastern topics and music, and chairman of the Sociology Department at Princeton University.

I have also read articles by Morocco and Aisha Ali, who have studied ME dance abroad. Even read the famous diatribe "Orientalism" by Edward Said and the subsequent books opposing his viewpoints.

Anything I can find in print and in English, I read it. I also look for documentaries and other resource material.

Unfortunately, there are few people living that I know of who can talk from personal experience about the early Cairo cabaret scene. If you know of any, it would do us all a favor if you interviewed that person before she/he joins the rest now lost to us!

I understand Badi'a Masabni wrote her memoirs, which I would love to read. However, they are not generally available, certainly not in English.

Whatever has been written about those times by the people who were there, I've tried to find it. There isn't much in English, but so far I haven't found any contradictions to what I've maintained about the Western influence.

We are not talking about baladi or Egyptian singers or anything else but an art form that developed as a result of dancers of different ME traditions performing together and nightclub owners who wanted to attract European and American clients to their establishments. It's fine to debate how much Western influence had as an impact, but it was not insignificant.

Sure, we could skip the veils and Hollywood-inspired costumes, pull the Western instruments out of the live bands, forget about Westernized versions of traditional music, stop doing ballet-style arms and spins, lose those high heels -- but all those things, while optional, are still what we associate with belly dancing today.

As for later times and the way belly dance came to the United States: I have written an extensively researched article on Sol Bloom, the American showman who brought ME dancers to the 1897 Chicago World's Fair, when the first use of the term "belly dance" was recorded. I've also written about early belly dance record albums produced in the States from the 1950s to the '70s (both articles can be found on The Gilded Serpent online).

I also interviewed one of the greatest of the music producers, Eddie "The Sheik" Kochak for Zaghareet!, a print magazine. Kochak is in his 80s and a first-generation American musician of Syrian immigrant parents. His parents ran a ME-style coffeehouse for other immigrants in New York City from at least the 1930s.

He is among many still living in the U.S. who remember when ME/Turkish/Greek/Armenian communities of the time had their own supper clubs, coffeehouses and meeting places. They also had haflas and other celebratory events. Not only did people do their traditional dances there, they imported dancers and musicians from Egypt and other places to perform.

When Kochak (this is an Americanized name) grew older, he became a very popular percussion musician, booking agent (he still is) for ME entertainers, and impresario. First-generation musicians of ME/Turkish/Greek/Armenian descent (and more recent immigrants) often played together at various ethnic events and gatherings. They learned each other's music, and as time went by they also altered some of the traditional music to be more appealing to a newer generation and to the Western audience that started coming in the early '50s.

Kochak himself teamed up with a very respected Iranian musician named Hakkai Obadia, a Sephardic Jew who formed Baghdad's first symphony orchestra, to arrange old and new melodies for belly dancers and lovers of belly dance music. They turned out a long series of records called "Strictly Belly Dancing."

According to Kochak, these immigrant communities referred to raqs sharqi, tchiftetelli and Oriental danzi by their proper names according to the style and who was performing them -- or just generally as "Middle Eastern dance", "Turkish style" and "Greek style," although they also knew the differences between these modern cabaret styles and the older, folkloric ones.

Americans, both the children of immigrants and non-related Westerners, started visiting these clubs and gatherings and seeing the dancing. Kochak recalls that it was the Americans who called it collectively "belly dancing," and the term was generally picked up by the ethnic communities. Americans learned belly dancing from immigrants and the imported performers (as attested by American pioneers such as Morocco, Serena Wilson and Dahlena).

I need to make a point here: Eddie Kochak has had similar comments published elsewhere, particularly in Arab-American related articles. Of course, he is not alone in experiencing a similar upbringing and seeing the evolution of belly dance in the States. But he is very well-known, and his comments can be verified. He's listed in the Brooklyn telephone book (because he's still a booking agent and performer), and he has an address printed on his web site that he can be written to. That's how I contacted him.

This is what I know, pending further discovery. If I were claiming to be a real authority, I would be at least fairly fluent in Arabic so I could read some otherwise unavailable materials in English, and I would have actually done fieldwork in the Middle East, Turkey or Greece, preferably all three!

I am just a journalist who knows how to do research with what's available. Not everyone's research has been the same as mine, and I'm sure there are lots of experiences and materials I haven't even dreamed of! All I would ask is that those who would dispute my conclusions would present verifiable evidence that isn't only hearsay or personal opinion.

I've said many times what we call "belly dance" today is a distinct ethnic style. With a strong Western influence, true, but I never said it dominates or should get more credit than it is due. It's just there. I think "belly dance" should stay within certain parameters to be called that and not another kind of fusion.

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gypsy8522

It is TODAY those "optional things" have become, in many cases, the only requirement by western dancers. For that reason they are not real belly dancers, they are moving bodies. This is NOT what the original raqs sharqi back then WITH ALL ITS WESTERN INFLUENCES was about. Oriental dance is about SOUL and FEELING, it expresses the happiness, sorrow, history, cultural pride and other things about the Middle Eastern culture. It is NOT about the west and it is not the spins and high heels that make up the belly dancing. I have seen barefooted women without hollywood-style gear, not doing any spins and they were belly dancing. Fifi abdo came out of the ghetto, I dont think she even knew what ballet was when she first started dancing, still she is one of the greatest raqs sharqi dancers of all times.

No it was not insignificant and I don't think anyone here was trying to say that. But you said more than once in this thread that belly dancing had a stong western influence which is NOT the case, especially since you do no have a strong evidence to back up your words.



I would also ask that you provide evidence to back up your opinion or the facts that you are educating us or the public with. I read 'a trade like any other' by Karin van Nieuwkerk, and while I appreciate that the writer went to Egypt, did a lot of research and took photos of the locals etc.. it was clearly writen from a western tourist point of view, at least to me it seemed like it. The Egyptian television archives has interviews of people who were in the show business that late back to the 60's. I watched a show last month that hosted some old man who used to work with all these actresses and dancers, he had many nice stories to tell but I only got to watch the last ten minutes of the program. The history is not lost, people are just not looking in the right places. A lot of the performers are related in some way or another, for instance the child actress Fairuz's cousin who is also a famous actress was on a TV program last week and talked alot about her.


Middle Eastern dance is dance from the Middle Eastern region and North Africa. Raqs Sharqi or oriental dance means 'dance of the east'. It is NOT an East/West mixture. Answering your question, and I'm going to be blunt this time, many western girl just do not 'get it', hence the terrible misrepresentations being passed off as belly dancing. A lot of them do not have the natural ability as they did not grow up in an environment where they were surrounded by those things. Arabs have certain gestures, slang terms, basically intercultural things that non-Arabs will never understand. Arab women grow up with the music, they understand the language in different dialects, the poetry, sometimes when they listen to a song it brings back to them childhood memories, certain songs give them a sense of happiness, womanhood and cultural pride. You see the expression on their face, it is genuine not plastered on. They dance from the inside and without self consciousness. It is not about the costumes, the heels, the effect and only so they can show the world what they can do.

Dipali

Dear Aisha,
In that thread is there something different to other we have already seen or worse than the infamous wedding dancers. I have-not found that thread so please if you can give me the exact link.

My sincere apology for not mentioning the few people who understand or try to understand cultures other than their own .

I am aware that many make fun of Bollywood , in fact Bollywood dance and Indian accent is an item of jokes for many people. No I am not angry at all. However I understand your frustration when you see all those videos. I tend to ignore them as not being culturally accepted doesn’t matter what kind of dance they do. When I visit YT I have a choice to make after watching all those painful videos and the one accepted or near as the real thing. Almost in every art form this exists, Whether Belly Dancing or painting. There is always a good and bad side to all art forms.


I also agree that there is a strong influence of west to make belly dance popular among western and eastern people. It did not happen always in a good way but I think Middle eastern culture is strong enough to survive all these .

Gypsy, I like your posts, because you bring a very different dimension to this discussion board, but sometimes I assume there is a lot of anger inside you against so called Western world. I was born in India and India was under the British for 100 plus years , before that it was ruled by Muslims dynasty for a few centuries, most of the countries on this planet went through the same process, Only difference is the last 50 years we are more aware of situations because of modern media and technology and more vocal about our rights. United States of America is not only responsible for many conflicts in the Middle east but also in Asia and South America, In the cold war period they used to help Pakistan against India because it was an ally of former USSR. Not that India is a perfect example of democracy , they have their own agenda ,specially against Pakistan mainly because it’s a Muslim country, the situation is changing a bit and most of the educated Indians do understand that its all about government face saving effort but nothing else showing off Nuclear power and all the warship etc etc. I would say when you look back at history Asian or middle east countries never stand as a good example to others. For many Asian and middle eastern countries showing off their heritage or war power or whatever in a aggressive way is quite common. It does not help any situation. I think its time we get rid of those tribal thoughts and move forward , it’s time for those countries to prove themselves culturally and financially to the world rather than thinking who did what to whom. If you really know the inside political and financial situation of USA , believe me you would not worry that much of America, those days of world domination as they used to think is over. Financially its over, culturally it’s a concern. In fact Americas double standard culture always has been a concern to others.

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they were surrounded by those things. Arabs have certain gestures, slang terms, basically intercultural things that non-Arabs will never understand.


I understand exactly what you are saying gipsy,

The Cabaret movement was born in Paris and many many countries like Brazil, Argentina, USA Egypt and Cuba were influence by it. For example, Cabaret Tropicana is one of the most famous cabaret in the world, it exists before Las Vegas,
The Tropicana shows are a recopilation of the Cuban flolkore rythms and dances taken to " Sparkle and fantasy" Cuban Cabaret music is very Jazz influenced (Latin Jazz) each dancer in thoses shows, is trained in a special school, to get in that school, they should meet certain requirements and one of them is having a ballet background, but what is mostly important is that when they are in the stage performing, they have to represent the culture of the island. I have met many non - cuban dancers who have gone to cuba to learn from the correct source and they are all very humble never heard any of them suggesting that our dance is american or french just because ot the Jazz or ballet influence its used in cabaret.

gypsy8522

[quote=Dipali;44554]Gypsy, I like your posts, because you bring a very different dimension to this discussion board, but sometimes I assume there is a lot of anger inside you against so called Western world.[quote]


Dipali,

I do not carry anger towards the western world as much as I (and millions of others) am irritated by the ignorance that a lot of them carry. It is common to see western people who have got nothing to complain about except how messed up our cultures are(yet it is okay to "borrow" our dance and music) and how suppressed the women, always ranting about something they don't like as if everyone on this planet was born to live by the western standards. This is the impression I got from some members on this board as well. By the way, I grew up in the Middle East but I speak three different languages and I know a lot about other cultures and I have friends from all over the world. Why is it that many westerners who have been learning about the Middle East, be it politics, culture, arts, have been "studying" for a long time yet they do not bother to learn how to communicate in arabic? The majority of them cannot pronounce foreign names properly. I don't see why it is ok to be that ignorant, but when someone from the other side expresses how they feel about this, that feeling is referred to as anger.

The United States of America IS responsible for many of the coflicts in the Middle East. If they hadn't been supporting our dictators many countries would not be suffering and living in conditions below poverty level. Do you know why is it that Hosni Mubarak has been president for the last 30 years, Egypt is the only country besides Israel to get billions of dollars in aid from the United States each year (which by the way all goes into his own pocket)? It is the same reason why Egypt is the only country that has an Israeli embassy that is still operating. And no, it is not because he got 98 eight percent of the votes in the "democratic" presedential election. We cannot get rid of him because this is the kind of democracy America wants to see in the Middle East, although they are saying their mission is to "free" the Arab world from dictators like Saddam Hussein which and the reason they started that failed war in Iraq... out of their love for the poor Iraqi people. There is no difference between Saddam, Hosni Mubarak and Saudi Arabian king. They are all dictators, they killed many innocent people.. the only difference is that Egypt and Saudi are dictatorships as well as slaves for the American government, while Saddam was NOT. If the United States really cared for establishing democracy in the Middle East, they would have started with Egypt and Saudi Arabia first before going into Iraq.


Yes, I am sure that theory applies to the eastern countries only, as the western countries have never tried to show off their war power in an agressive way!!!! As for the heritage, I am sure if they had one they would be doing the exact same thing. If someone defending his land and culture or killing for some religous belief is agressive, killing a hundred thousand innocent people for OIL is....??? Are you implying that Asian and Middle Eastern are the aggressive while in America and the west they are the 'civilized' ones? If this is true the west would be the most peacful. Despite not having wars or an outside power occupying their land, the level of crime, rape and domestic violence is reportedly the highest in western countries... not mention fatalities from drugs and violence, the divorce rates, sex, morals, racism and the list goes on... all these things are more widely spread in the United States of America and the western countries. What you are saying I hear it on CNN all the time. It is easy to say this to someone living in a country and all they have to worry about is paying rent, electric bills and the price of gas not going higher than $3 per gallon. However, there is people across the world who are starting to wake up and they will not be fooled by this anymore.

Kharmine

Part of our education as intelligent and thoughtful human beings is learning that even "outsiders" can teach us useful things about our own cultures.

To dismiss or disparage the observations and findings of "foreigners" just because we don't always agree with them is unreasonably ethnocentric and a real loss to our understanding of our world.

I understand the objections to dancers who misrepresent the art, but I'll say it again -- bad belly dancing isn't limited to non-ME or Arab folks, non-Turks or non-Greeks. And I've seen beautiful, soulful dancing done by dancers of all races and cultures who have taken the time to understand what they are doing.

So, I am forced to conclude that racial/cultural heritage does not automatically gives dancers an advantage over those who don't share it. Which is what people are saying when they claim "white girls" or non-Arabs or whatever can't dance as well.

The Western influence can be obvious or subtle, but it was a significant part of the history and development of raqs sharqi, and its presence to a greater or lesser extent does not automatically make it "not belly dance" as some might want to claim (particularly ironic in that 'belly dance" is inescapably a Western term, and old American slang, at that).

Which is why I stress, even perhaps sometimes overstress that fact occasionally. I am not trying to diminish the true ethnic heritage of the dance, but trying to remind people of certain things they may not know or would prefer not to remember.

It's too bad that this thread seems to be getting off the original subject and into a political diatribe.

I can understand the East's problems with the West, and I can even agree with many of the complaints. But I refuse to support the idea that all the sins charged against the West are a good enough excuse not to be fair, balanced or accurate in this argument about 'belly dance" -- or any other topic, for that matter.

I've said my piece as courteously and accurately as possible. I'm done here and off this thread.

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Aisha Azar

Dear Gypsy and Dipali,
Just as governments in your own countries do things that the people do not agree with, the same is true here in the U.S. I am an American and I am neither arrogant nor violent, nor do I feel superior to my fellow human beings on any level. Prejudice works both ways. I am a separate individual, as is everyone else here. It is necessary on ALL sides to look at individuals. For example, recently there was a Coptic gentleman on this forum who got decided I am a Muslimeh because I use "Peace be on him" when talking about the Prophet Mohammed. This is just common courtesy and it is the way my Muslin friends have taught me. He hates Muslims so much that this hatred was all encompassing and he could care less what my beliefs were. If I was going to respect Muslim tradition, regardless of my own faith, then I was dirt. he called me a liar, among other fine things.
When you say, Americans do thus and so and are responsible for this and that, I have to disagree. I am an American. I have persecuted no one. I have stolen nothing from anyone and I bend over backwards to remain true to the culture; enough so that many other western dancers get really angry and frustrated with me for taking the Arab view of things. ( To see that's true, just look this forum over a time or two!!) I can not help it. It is the correct view as far as I am concerned. Do not mistake Americans for being lump of people all the same. We are vastly different. I need to add here that I recently received a visit from the FBI because of my activities in the Arab community. My own government treating me like a traitor when I have done nothing wrong!

Dipali, that clip is in the Off Topic forum under "Just had to show you this". I think it is about 10 threads down. If I were either Arab or Hindi, I would probably be upset about that clip because it is aimed at children and perpetuates some pretty weird stereotypes.

Regards,
A'isha

gypsy8522

A fair, balanced or accurate argument is when you listen to all different points of views and not always looking for ideas that match your own. If you think that belly dance is an East/West mixture that has nothing a non-Arab girl can't possibly do as well (I gave a detailed explaination) it would be a good idea to elaborate on why you don't find my answers or somebody else's acceptable instead of repeating the same 'fact' throughout the thread. An accurate argument about the origins of a "belly dance" that came from the Middle East is to be supported by evidence preferebly coming from the actual source. It would not be based on myths or "facts" coming from a bunch of books and articles about Eastern dance that were written from a Western point of view decades after the art form is produced.



A'isha Azar,

By America I mean the American government and its foreign policy. If you visited Arabic countries you'd very well know that Arabs distinguish between the American people and what their government is doing. But in the past eight years since George Bush has come to office the way Americans are viewed, not only in the Middle East but worldwide, has started to change. We cannot be blamed for our governments actions because they were imposed on us. It is different in the United States because the American citizens get to vote and after everything that has been going they still went out and voted for Bush, again. Also when tens of thousands of Iraqis are dying each month from a war an occupying force brought over, but we turn on the TV and all we see is rants about the 'tragic death' of two or three soldiers, it makes people very angry. Those innocent civilians who died are human beings too.

nicknack

Gypsy my statistics come from national records. The reason that the population statistics are as they are is because after 1948 an average of 1 million Jews living in Arab countries became refugees, a large majority was absorbed by Israel (adding to the number of native Jews already residing there), the rest went to France, the UK, the United States, South America, so yes there are Jewish commities in the western world with a relation to middle eastern culture. And not all non middle eastern Jews came from Europe, they also come from Ethiopia, India, Central Asia. These and most of European origin would not "go back where they came from", my best friend would never even consider Besarabia or any part of the former soviet union home (he would however be willing to move to Canada but that's because the economic situation is dire).

Please don't get into the whole "palestine thing", it's only going to boil down to an argument over semantics, history, propaganda, the sykes picot agreement, the creation of Jordan etc etc..... one mutation of a thread at a time.... But you do have a point that a large part of Israeli society have been looked down on by a minority of ashkenazim, it's a problem with some of the older generation holding onto the tradition of goyland when they no longer have any need. But it's not endemic, in everyday life everyone lives equally side by side, especially in places such as Haifa, and Jaffa, nowdays there's nothing unusual about half "europen" half "middle eastern" jews (we like to call them ashkephardi), or children with both Jewish and Arab parents. And Arab Israelis who live in Israeli society have no problem being called just that, those that I know are community minded. one running a successful outreach program that helps Jews and Arabs alike..... The only people with a problem are the ultra religous, who have too much say in a secular society (well there are other people with other crazy problems but it's far too much to stick here).

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