Irritated... - Page 4

Aisha Azar · 09-07-2007, 11:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Aniseteph

If the general public are taking at face value everything they see on YouTube and expect responsible and accurate tagging then they really are incredibly stupid and deserve to believe that a fat bloke wobbling his beer gut is belly dance. As if most of them care anyway....

I completely agree about not misrepresenting ones amateur efforts. But as Moon said, comments are along the lines of "you're a .... (insert colour/ appearance/ gender/ religion/ background etc), you'll never get it, you shouldn't be doing this" are plain offensive. It sends a hate-filled message to everyone, from the ones who don't get it, don't care and just want to do their own self expressing thing in the name of belly dance, to the most responsible and dedicated genuine student.

Dear Aniseteph.
I know that when I see things I am not familiar with, I do not necessarily jnow enough to judge whether or not they are good or bad. I think we often feel that because WE know about the dance that everyone else does, too. Not being able to tell good from bad in dance does not mean the public is stupid. it only means this is not an areas of expertise for them. ( Of course some thing are obviously awful, but not all.)
RE the prejudicial statements, I agree that any kind of blanket prejudicial statement is terrible. Personally, I have not had any of those kinds of comment made to me, so I am not sure how ubiquitous they are. I know I might get the impression that westerners can't belly dance if I saw only what I see of westerners on You Tube, where there is a LOT of hideous stuff done by us in the name of the dance.
Regards,
A'isha

Kharmine · 09-07-2007, 11:59 PM

I really don't get the ethnocentric attitude. What we call "belly dance" today is a fusion of ME dance traditions with a strong WESTERN influences. The term "belly dance" is an inaccurate, old American slang term applied generally.

So what part of this East/West mixture belongs so exclusively to a few ethnic groups that "white girls" or non-Arabs or whatever can't possibly do it as well?

nicknack · 09-08-2007, 12:14 AM

Ok first I just have to nitpick about the first post. There is such a thing as Jewish culture, the word "Judaism" was only invented in the last couple of centuries to describe the religion of the Jewish people (a distinct ethnic group/nation, with sub divisions). In Israel "bellydance" is sometimes referred to as Sephardi dance, as it is also part of Sephardi Jewish culture... Just as there are different groups of Roma, there are different groups of Jew (there are even groups that have come together to form an entire new community)...

The fact is there will always be someone out there with a superiority complex, who doesn't like the idea of sharing. There are the Arabs who insult Turkish dancers and Turkish dance, Lebanese insulting Egyptians and vice versa, and a whole host of other things that stem from the fact that some people can't accept the fact that there's more to middle eastern culture than what's in their little sphere of reference with little notice to their neighbours (although that might take a while to change in a world where the rest of the UK still continues to deride Wales (that's a rant I'll save for another day))......... Also even if you see a bad western dancer on youtube, that does not justify throwing insults, constructive critiscism would be much more helpful.

Aisha Azar · 09-08-2007, 01:51 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kharmine

I really don't get the ethnocentric attitude. What we call "belly dance" today is a fusion of ME dance traditions with a strong WESTERN influences. The term "belly dance" is an inaccurate, old American slang term applied generally.

So what part of this East/West mixture belongs so exclusively to a few ethnic groups that "white girls" or non-Arabs or whatever can't possibly do it as well?

The dance is, indeed a Middle Eastern dance. No matter what influences were there during its development,they were all subject to being filtered through the Middle Eastern world view, and because of that, the dance is uniquely, specifically Middle Eastern/ North African in its essence and spirit. Cultural anthropology explains this process. I can not remember if it is called filtering or what. I sincerely doubt that it has been proven as a fact that the dance was based on strong western influences, any more than it was on Hindi, or Persian or other influences. The West does not stand out as a defining factor for the spirit of the dance.
I am rather inclined to discount the supposed importance of the West in the development of the dance. As always whenever anything great comes out of a Third World country, Western peoples have to lay some kind of claim to it, and try to take credit for it on some level or other. It is my opinion that whether or not the West was there, the dance would have come about simply from the transition of large groups of people leaving an agrarian lifestyle of the Big Man variety and moving into the city-state, where they were exposed to many different things and developed more sophisticated form of entertainment.
Neither surmise if difinitively provable. Can we please, just for once, try to give credit where it is actually due and admit that it was the brain child of a woman who took it to the stage, with her very much Middle Eastern cultural background to influence what she made?

gypsy8522 · 09-08-2007, 02:34 AM

I'm not going to comment over the "there is such thing as jewish culture", simply because I don't like to argue over something I don't know much about, I suspect what you are saying is not correct. It would be like saying "muslim culture" or "christian culture"... Islam and Christianity are religions, not cultures. As for "jewish sephardi dance", I don't know if it relates to belly dancing, never heard of it. But what I do know is that only a few years ago before belly dancing hit its worldwide craze, it was not accepted by a lot of people in the jewish community. I read quite a few articles and testimonies from dancers that confirm this. I also came across a statement made by a jewish Rabbi where he said " belly dancing style comes from cheap and defective cultures." The Rabbi also added that "even if belly dancing is performed in full dress in front of a female audience, halachic law still does not permit it. The Arab music which accompanies this type of body movement does not comprise the appropriate spirit." Again, how is belly dancing part of "Jewish culture"?!?!!! And if you are going to talk about someone's insulting comments, as Aisha Azar said, you have to check the other side of the coin too!

Not 'liking the idea of sharing' is one thing, and objecting to someone's misrepresention of an important piece of a country's history is something else. Especially if there is people trying to misinform the public by letting us think that they created it or that it came from a place far away from its native roots. There is A LOT of bad belly dancing done by westerners that is spread all over the internet. And please don't tell me that it "is no longer Middle Eastern because it has western influences" nonsense. Almost every video ( I have see hundreds!) contains arabic music and Egyptian or Turkish made costumes, so it IS a display of Middle Eastern culture after all. I travelled to so many western countries, went to restaurants where they had belly dancers and saw the looks on people's faces who were non-arab. And let me tell you, it wasn't very pleasant.

Now, about the superiority complex and ethnocentric attitude remarks...

Why don't we all google the word "racism" and see what comes up?? I can't think of a time in modern history where the Middle East or some other third world countries weren't fighting off white occupation. History has proven that the white man is always trying to forcefully take away something from others and lay a claim on it whether it is land, culture, OIL, hello??? History has also proven that the white race is the "superior" race.

It is amazing how some people point fingers at others without thinking about the four other fingers that are pointing back at them.

Kharmine · 09-08-2007, 05:24 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by gypsy8522

...
It is amazing how some people point fingers at others without thinking about the four other fingers that are pointing back at them.

Gypsy, I doubt anyone here is ignoring the shameful history of white imperialists/colonialists just to make you or anyone else angry. If the complaints on this thread say anything it is that racism and co-option of culture are not practices that are confined to any one group. And that's all I will say about this argument.

As to my own comment --

Oriental dance has ME origins, has versions that originated in Turkey and Greece, no one is denying that. I mentioned that is a fusion of ME dance traditions with a strong Western influence, which it is. Nothing I've ever researched has ever excluded the Western influence, which is all I meant by my not understanding an ethnocentric attitude that wants to exclude "white girls" and non-Arabs from acceptance as belly dancers.

As to how much Western influence -- well, that may be the subject of some debate. From what I've read, Cairo's early cabarets that catered to a European clientele often had Westernized bands playing Westernized music for dancers of various ME countries who incorporated Western touches such as veils, heels, Hollywood movie-style costumes -- that seems to be pretty conclusive in the development of raqs sharqi. How much of an influence on individual dancers varied, and still does.

IMHO, it is as wrong to dismiss or downplay the Western influence as it would be to give it too much credit.

Finally, we've seen plenty of videos showing some famous Egyptian, Turkish, Greek, etc. dancers doing weird or very bad stuff. It's not just Westerners misrepresenting the art. Bad belly dance is bad belly dance, period. Let's leave it at that.

gypsy8522 · 09-08-2007, 07:30 AM

What you've read I'm assuming it came mostly from online articles and belly dancing forum. Correct? Unless you watch arabic TV programs, besides that I can't imagine any other sources. Now, from what I READ, very little was known about Egyptian dancers and the Cairo nightclub scene in America in the 50's, let alone the 20's when the whole cabaret scene took off. So any gossip or myths I hear from a belly dancers ninety years later who are living thousands of kilometers away from where the 'history' took place, I wouldn't consider it accurate and reliable information. You mentioned veils, heels, Hollywood movie-style costumes... but all these props, what does it have to do with the actual dancing? Shafiq Galal is a Shaabi singer who a lot of times wore a western suit instead of a galabeya, this doesn't mean his singing was Middle Eastern with a 'strong WESTERN influence'. Om Kalthoum had the electric guitar in her orchestra, why not claim Om Kalthoum as a highly western influenced singer as well.. at least with her we know exactly what the influence was and where it came from, not just making up stories and passing them around.

Sharqi music is about SOUL, the Middle Eastern soul. The feeling and cultural aspect of it cannot be ignored. Oriental dance is no different, as it is the human embodiment of that music. It is not exercise, where you are just moving your body around vigorously. And it is not gymnastics which is just moving your body in controlled ways. Although I'm sure if I went to a gymnastics contest and told the judges I wanted to express myself ignoring the rules, I will get thrown out of the competition.

Aniseteph · 09-08-2007, 11:10 AM

I get what Gypsy is saying - people, a lot of them Western (

what about the Far East???) are out there doing horrible things to art forms they don't understand out of arrogance, ignorance or whatever, dumbing it down and misrepresenting it to others. Which is wrong.

I don't think anyone here is trying to pull the "you in the ME couldn't have done this without the help of the white man" line - that's ridiculous - of course what Gypsy is referring to is about the dancing and the music and the feeling and the soul, not high heels or a veil or an electric guitar here and there. And that is an essentially ME thing, difficult if not impossible for an outsider to see in the same context as someone brought up with it. To claim Western influence for that is arrogant in the extreme.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kharmine

I really don't get the ethnocentric attitude. What we call "belly dance" today is a fusion of ME dance traditions with a strong WESTERN influences.

And I agree with this too. There is a huge Western (and elsewhere) scene and right or wrong the same words are used, belly dance, for the versions that have evolved over the last hundred years or so in other countries with Western influence, good or bad, by the bucketful.

Kharmine and Gypsy are not talking about the same thing.

Aisha Azar · 09-08-2007, 02:54 PM

Dear Aniseteph,
Responses in context so I don't get confused!

Quote:

Originally Posted by Aniseteph

I get what Gypsy is saying - people, a lot of them Western (

what about the Far East???) are out there doing horrible things to art forms they don't understand out of arrogance, ignorance or whatever, dumbing it down and misrepresenting it to others. Which is wrong.

A. writes- Yes. And with Middle Eastern dance it is so far out of hand that we have stuff being passed off as the dance that is not even close!! And it is definitely wrong to so misrepresent something we are borrowing from another culture. by not clearly defining what is being done. There is some amazing good fusion going on out there, but it is not belly dance; it is fusion.
Belly dance is a very specific dance form, from the Middle East/ North Africa. It has precise movement families, a certain cultural essence and spirit, and is performed to music that denotes those cultures. And, even when someone breaks from that musical demand, as in the recent movie clip of Nadia Gamal, the essence of the dance remains. The thing is, there is a way to break the rules within cultural boundaries that few of us westerners understand!

I don't think anyone here is trying to pull the "you in the ME couldn't have done this without the help of the white man" line - that's ridiculous - of course what Gypsy is referring to is about the dancing and the music and the feeling and the soul, not high heels or a veil or an electric guitar here and there. And that is an essentially ME thing, difficult if not impossible for an outsider to see in the same context as someone brought up with it. To claim Western influence for that is arrogant in the extreme.

A.writes- I think people here ARE trying to say that there is a lot more of the western influence in the dance than actually has ever existed, and people seem to be talking here about the dance's beginnings. For that matter, the western instruments were often originally Middle Eastern anyway, in the form of violin (rebab), guitar (Oud), etc. The western world took these instruments and made something uniquely western out of them, just as the Arabs took a very few western concepts and made them uniquely Middle Eastern/ North African. In other words, what is assimilated changes and becomes what it is within the context of the culture that is utilizing it. The oud, once it reached Europe, became the lute, and each is its very own instrument with its very own ethnic soul. The same with dance. Western innovations in the music did not change its Middle Eastern soul. There was no "heavy western influence" that in any way overshadowed the cultural context of the dance or the music.. The dance is and was and always has been a uniquely Middle Eastern/North African dance. As Gypsy said, we only read the history of the dance as it is produced by westerners. That is why I have found the Arab point of view so important in my ideas about the dance. I think that the people whose dance it is are often dismissed when others don't like what they are hearing from them. I thank my lucky stars every day that my first teachers were Arabs!

And I agree with this too. There is a huge Western (and elsewhere) scene and right or wrong the same words are used, belly dance, for the versions that have evolved over the last hundred years or so in other countries with Western influence, good or bad, by the bucketful.

A. writes- And this is changing as more and more dancers take responsibility to really define what they are doing. People are beginning to realize that these western fusion dances are indeed NOT belly dance, as without the cultural context, those words mean very little. Hence we now have made steps in clarity of definition and have things like Tribal, American Oriental, distinctions between Turkish, Egyptian and Lebanese belly dance, etc. When I first started dancing, there was only one person that I knew of who was making these distinctions. She was my Arab teacher. I later learned about Aisha Ali, who is also Arab, and a few others who feel a responsibility about what we are borrowing.

Kharmine and Gypsy are not talking about the same thing.

A. writes- I think they are talking about the same thing, but from different world views.

Regards,
A'isha

nicknack · 09-08-2007, 04:45 PM

Gypsy, over half of the Jewish population of Israel are of North African and Middle Eastern origin, many having lived in the region for over 3000 years, the term generally used to describe this group is "Sephardi", if you go to a Sephardi synagogue you will hear quarter tones in the music and tunes (music written in the middle east), the older generation of middle eastern Jews spoke Judeo Arabic (written in Hebrew characters), wrote many texts in it that are still referenced today. And if you look at any Jewish party in Israel playing Mizrachi (that means eastern) music, the sephardi girls do what you would describe as shaabi. There are those however who forget this fact, and are generally idiots. There is no law written that says you can't dance or have fun.

To be Jewish is to be part of a people and a religion, the same goes for Native Americans, Druse, Aboriginal Australians. Yes people can convert to the Jewish religion, but they don't go off on their own, they are absorbed into the community, and if they marry, will end up marrying an ethnically Jewish person.... if being Jewish was just about religion we would make up more than one tenth of one percent of the worlds population.

Anyway my original thought was that each group thinks of the dance as their own, which is permissable when if it's Egyptians talking of Egyptian bellydance, Turks talking about Turkish bellydance etc. This is great that so many people can put a different stamp on it. The only problem is people getting possesive and not being able to see any region specific style other than their own as valid.... which leads to the idiotic comments that we can see just about everywhere...

09-07-2007, 11:59 PM	#32 (permalink)
Kharmine V.I.P. Join Date: Nov 2006 Location: Foot of the Rocky Mountains Posts: 1,248	I really don't get the ethnocentric attitude. What we call "belly dance" today is a fusion of ME dance traditions with a strong WESTERN influences. The term "belly dance" is an inaccurate, old American slang term applied generally. So what part of this East/West mixture belongs so exclusively to a few ethnic groups that "white girls" or non-Arabs or whatever can't possibly do it as well? __________________ What if the hokey pokey is really what it's all about?

09-08-2007, 12:14 AM	#33 (permalink)
nicknack Moderator Join Date: Dec 2006 Location: Nottingham UK Posts: 269	Ok first I just have to nitpick about the first post. There is such a thing as Jewish culture, the word "Judaism" was only invented in the last couple of centuries to describe the religion of the Jewish people (a distinct ethnic group/nation, with sub divisions). In Israel "bellydance" is sometimes referred to as Sephardi dance, as it is also part of Sephardi Jewish culture... Just as there are different groups of Roma, there are different groups of Jew (there are even groups that have come together to form an entire new community)... The fact is there will always be someone out there with a superiority complex, who doesn't like the idea of sharing. There are the Arabs who insult Turkish dancers and Turkish dance, Lebanese insulting Egyptians and vice versa, and a whole host of other things that stem from the fact that some people can't accept the fact that there's more to middle eastern culture than what's in their little sphere of reference with little notice to their neighbours (although that might take a while to change in a world where the rest of the UK still continues to deride Wales (that's a rant I'll save for another day))......... Also even if you see a bad western dancer on youtube, that does not justify throwing insults, constructive critiscism would be much more helpful. __________________ *Cause I'm not here to let you down. But the costume makes the clown.*

09-08-2007, 02:34 AM	#35 (permalink)
gypsy8522 Moderator Join Date: Jul 2007 Posts: 567	I'm not going to comment over the "there is such thing as jewish culture", simply because I don't like to argue over something I don't know much about, I suspect what you are saying is not correct. It would be like saying "muslim culture" or "christian culture"... Islam and Christianity are religions, not cultures. As for "jewish sephardi dance", I don't know if it relates to belly dancing, never heard of it. But what I do know is that only a few years ago before belly dancing hit its worldwide craze, it was not accepted by a lot of people in the jewish community. I read quite a few articles and testimonies from dancers that confirm this. I also came across a statement made by a jewish Rabbi where he said " belly dancing style comes from cheap and defective cultures." The Rabbi also added that "even if belly dancing is performed in full dress in front of a female audience, halachic law still does not permit it. The Arab music which accompanies this type of body movement does not comprise the appropriate spirit." Again, how is belly dancing part of "Jewish culture"?!?!!! And if you are going to talk about someone's insulting comments, as Aisha Azar said, you have to check the other side of the coin too! Not 'liking the idea of sharing' is one thing, and objecting to someone's misrepresention of an important piece of a country's history is something else. Especially if there is people trying to misinform the public by letting us think that they created it or that it came from a place far away from its native roots. There is A LOT of bad belly dancing done by westerners that is spread all over the internet. And please don't tell me that it "is no longer Middle Eastern because it has western influences" nonsense. Almost every video ( I have see hundreds!) contains arabic music and Egyptian or Turkish made costumes, so it IS a display of Middle Eastern culture after all. I travelled to so many western countries, went to restaurants where they had belly dancers and saw the looks on people's faces who were non-arab. And let me tell you, it wasn't very pleasant. Now, about the superiority complex and ethnocentric attitude remarks... Why don't we all google the word "racism" and see what comes up?? I can't think of a time in modern history where the Middle East or some other third world countries weren't fighting off white occupation. History has proven that the white man is always trying to forcefully take away something from others and lay a claim on it whether it is land, culture, OIL, hello??? History has also proven that the white race is the "superior" race. It is amazing how some people point fingers at others without thinking about the four other fingers that are pointing back at them. Last edited by gypsy8522; 09-08-2007 at 03:39 AM.

09-08-2007, 04:45 PM	#40 (permalink)
nicknack Moderator Join Date: Dec 2006 Location: Nottingham UK Posts: 269	Gypsy, over half of the Jewish population of Israel are of North African and Middle Eastern origin, many having lived in the region for over 3000 years, the term generally used to describe this group is "Sephardi", if you go to a Sephardi synagogue you will hear quarter tones in the music and tunes (music written in the middle east), the older generation of middle eastern Jews spoke Judeo Arabic (written in Hebrew characters), wrote many texts in it that are still referenced today. And if you look at any Jewish party in Israel playing Mizrachi (that means eastern) music, the sephardi girls do what you would describe as shaabi. There are those however who forget this fact, and are generally idiots. There is no law written that says you can't dance or have fun. To be Jewish is to be part of a people and a religion, the same goes for Native Americans, Druse, Aboriginal Australians. Yes people can convert to the Jewish religion, but they don't go off on their own, they are absorbed into the community, and if they marry, will end up marrying an ethnically Jewish person.... if being Jewish was just about religion we would make up more than one tenth of one percent of the worlds population. Anyway my original thought was that each group thinks of the dance as their own, which is permissable when if it's Egyptians talking of Egyptian bellydance, Turks talking about Turkish bellydance etc. This is great that so many people can put a different stamp on it. The only problem is people getting possesive and not being able to see any region specific style other than their own as valid.... which leads to the idiotic comments that we can see just about everywhere... __________________ *Cause I'm not here to let you down. But the costume makes the clown.* Last edited by nicknack; 09-08-2007 at 04:53 PM.

09-08-2007, 07:30 AM	#37 (permalink)
gypsy8522 Moderator Join Date: Jul 2007 Posts: 567	What you've read I'm assuming it came mostly from online articles and belly dancing forum. Correct? Unless you watch arabic TV programs, besides that I can't imagine any other sources. Now, from what I READ, very little was known about Egyptian dancers and the Cairo nightclub scene in America in the 50's, let alone the 20's when the whole cabaret scene took off. So any gossip or myths I hear from a belly dancers ninety years later who are living thousands of kilometers away from where the 'history' took place, I wouldn't consider it accurate and reliable information. You mentioned veils, heels, Hollywood movie-style costumes... but all these props, what does it have to do with the actual dancing? Shafiq Galal is a Shaabi singer who a lot of times wore a western suit instead of a galabeya, this doesn't mean his singing was Middle Eastern with a 'strong WESTERN influence'. Om Kalthoum had the electric guitar in her orchestra, why not claim Om Kalthoum as a highly western influenced singer as well.. at least with her we know exactly what the influence was and where it came from, not just making up stories and passing them around. Sharqi music is about SOUL, the Middle Eastern soul. The feeling and cultural aspect of it cannot be ignored. Oriental dance is no different, as it is the human embodiment of that music. It is not exercise, where you are just moving your body around vigorously. And it is not gymnastics which is just moving your body in controlled ways. Although I'm sure if I went to a gymnastics contest and told the judges I wanted to express myself ignoring the rules, I will get thrown out of the competition.