Erin

Well, wow. It seems my statements were twisted and taken out of context somewhat. First of all, I will respond to A'isha's comment. My intent in pointing out that the term "belly dance" was coined by Americans was not intended to imply that it did not refer to Middle Eastern dance, but that the the dance form travelled to America and was so named by Americans. Deeper meaning also implies that again no Culture is pure and all Cultures have shared practices, and goes back to my comment about the human body and dance forms all over the world. Our body only moves in so many ways, and for anyone to believe that only Middle Easterners can shimmy and do hip circles, as well as undulate their torsos etc, etc, is not looking at the deeper picture. African dancers use these moves, dancers in Dance Clubs use these moves, Aerobics Instructors and Line Dancers can grape vine and tap their feet and execute many different moves that are also included in Middle Eastern dance. Stating the obvious, Americans (or non-Middle Easterners, in general) come from many different Cultures (actually Middle Easterners do as well), including Middle Eastern ones, and they have shared those cultures to become what they are today.

Suheir and Gypsy,
Again you bring what I said to the shallow end of the pool instead of looking for the deeper meaning. When I dance, I may not understand all the words to the music, but I do feel the music and "express myself beautifully" to that particular piece, in the dance form. Dancing is a meaningful and spiritual undertaking for me, and of all types of music, Middle Eastern music speaks the most deeply to my soul. It is not just about the pretty costumes (I'd dance in my PJs) nor about the "hip shaking" but about how one expresses (one's emotions, expressed in grace, and form) one's self to the music. Look deeper into what I am saying rather than assuming that I am saying that any old move to Middle Eastern music constitutes Middle Eastern Dancing. If I were doing say, Contemporary Dance moves to a Middle Eastern song, I would call it Contemporary Dance, not Middle Eastern Dance. If I were doing Middle Eastern dance moves to Rock and Roll I wouldn't call it Middle Eastern Dance.

There are beautiful dancers who dance Middle Eastern dance from all cultures, and there are not-so-beautiful dancers from all cultures. You can't stereotype. Not all Texans are cowboys and (for example; I have known people who have moved to Colorado from New York City or Chicago, who have never been on a horse or seen a cow, become unbelievably good cowboys) Being a cowboy (and being a dancer) is something that comes from your heart, it is something you are born to be, regardless of culture of origin. On the other hand I have seen people who are born into ranching families who thrive in the city and are afraid of horses, not to mention cows. Nor are all Coloradoans into skiing (I've never been on a ski slope). Certainly, understanding and living in a culture that produces a particular dance form could be helpful and make one a better dancer, but sometimes it is one's skill and personality and charisma, and what is in one's heart, that makes a dancer, not one's culture.

And I say EXACTLY!!! to your comment that it is the whole picture; not just Middle Eastern culture, but ALL Cultures contribute to each other, and that Middle Eastern Culture did not develop in a vacuum, instantly, but over time (thousands of years) drawing from OTHER Cultures, as well as developing new practices on its own. Next, I do not claim that just because "belly dance" is an American term, that Belly Dance is an American invention, but that, again ,I used the example to illustrate my point that cultures do not develop in a vacuum! My comment about belly dance "wherever it originated" was not made in ignorance of where it originated, but to point out, again, that cultures do not develop in a vacuum. Go back to my previous comment above that our body moves in only so many ways and you will see that Middle Eastern dancers used body movements that ANYBODY can do and put them to their particular style of music. And so we call it Middle Eastern dance. I do a grape vine to Greek music or Country Western music and call it by those names. I do a shimmy to Hip-Hop and call it that. Or undulate my torso up in a Contemporary move and call it that. So as you can see, cultures share practices. Dance (of all types) originated in the human body, and moves and styles have been shared, across cultures, again, for thousands of years.

Gypsy, it is not my doing that people use the term "belly dance" to refer to many different styles of dance. I personally do not use that term, because it covers many of the different styles I listed in my original post. When people ask I say I am a Middle Eastern dancer, and if they ask about a particular piece, I'll say it's in the Egyptian style, or it's Lebanese, etc, etc. When our troupe dances Greek, Flamenco, or modern style dances, we make sure that is explained in our programs. I made that comment because words may begin meaning a certain thing, and when popular culture gets ahold of them and begins to apply the word to everything that even remotely resembles the original meaning, it broadens the definition of the word, and one then can't use that word specifically to define what it was originally meant to define without misunderstading. Tibal dance is certainly a [i]form[i] of "belly dance" with roots in Middle Eastern dance, but it is an American Dance form, as is true of Gothic Belly dance, or fusion. All use Middle Eastern Dance moves or "belly dancing" but they are not Middle Eastern Dance. Does that clarify what I said for you? I am hearing that the term "belly dance", for you, most definitely means Middle Eastern Dance, but the sad truth is that for popular culture, that is not what it means. The term is used to define many different types of dance that may or may not have originated in Middle Eastern dance. Change sometimes stinks, but we can't stop it. All we can do is educate the idiots on YouTube and such places that slam us because they don't know any better. I read a comment on a video once about the dancer's feet and how big and ugly they were, as if the woman could do anything about them. It was sad to hear such a shallow comment from someone that had nothing to do with the dancer's ability to dance well.

I appreciate the opportunity to voice my opinion and discuss and clarify this topic with you all. I think it is an important topic. It is difficult to express things clearly when one doesn't have the whole effect of tone of voice or body language to read along with the words. I certainly mean no offense to anyone, though from some your responses, it seems some was taken, so I apologize to those whom I offended, it was not intended. Also, I can only write so much without hogging the thread, so I am happy to clarify what I am saying. Thanks again for giving me the opportunity!
Respectfully,
Erin

Erin

P.S. And I don't mean to say that we should not be respectful of culture. We most definitely should. I am just saying that we should recognize that Culture is not static. It evolves and changes and grows. We should by all means do everything we can to learn about and respect the culture from which we are borrowing this dance form. It will enlighten us and help us grow as human beings as well as dancers.

On the subject of Goddess Temple dances. I wouldn't discount it. I would say that Middle Eastern dance , in its current incarnation, is probably not related in any way to New Age Goddess worship. However, considering that most Middle Eastern cultures, before the advent of Judaism, Christianity, and Islam, were sometimes Goddess oriented, as were many prior cultures and civilizations. So since human beings have probably been dancing since they walked upright, I would say there may have been some similar forms of dance practiced in Goddess Temples in the Middle East in ancient times.
Erin

Aisha Azar

Dear Erin,
The problem is that with Raqs sharghi/belly dance/Oriental Tanzi in specifics, too many dancers have decided that if one uses movements that are torso/ pelvis originated, viola, it MUST be belly dance. One only has to read any forum on the dance and see the references to Shakira as "belly dancer" for example, to see that this is true. I not only have made the argument myself that the human body has a finite number of ways to move, but I did a paper on that very subject years ago. However, the context of a hip movement in Samba is different than that same movement in hula or belly dance.
The cultural context in which those movements are performed is what makes each dance what it is in specific ways. Ghawazi, for example is a dance that has many movements in common with belly dance, but it is still its own separate dance, distinct from belly dance. This is because of the cultural elements in the dance to a large degree. Of course no culture survives all by itself without other influences, but there is a very specifically cultural way of assimilating other influences. Cultures are very specific and separate, even within regions. As a person who went to 13 different schools before I graduated from high school, I can tell you that California has a whole different culture than Wisconsin, which is different from Alabama or Maine, and that is just in one country. ( To be even more specific, L.A. has a whole different culture than San Francisco, judging from when I lived in both locations.) None of those states mentioned here has survived in a vacuum, but each has its own distinct personality and culture. Dance does indeed represent very distinct cultures, which is why we see a big difference between Lebanese, Egyptian and Turkish belly dance. They each bring to the dance their own distinct cultural elements along with the aspects of the dance that make them each belly dance. Belly dance is a dance from the Middle East/ North Africa. When we distill the cultural aspects out of the dance, we have some other form of dance.
Regards,
A'isha

gypsy8522

Dear Erin,

I did not get offended by your response and I hope no one else did. I just don't like it when people take something that is not originally theirs and it is more disturbing is the fact that they appear to tell the public otherwise. Only because the American government thinks they have the right to Iraq's natural resources and were able to put their hands on it, does not mean it is theirs. I am not trying to bring politics into this, but what is happening here is no different than stealing resources, it is cultural theft. When, lets say, ninety five percent of the music, costumes, dance movements comes from the Middle Eastern region and are used in "belly dancing" yet people say that it is NOT Middle Eastern, it does sound a little more than "borrowing" culture.

Americans of Middle Eastern origin make up less than 2 percent of the US population( this includes Pakistan, bangladesh, iran etc..). Unlike Irish and other Europeans, as well as mexico and some latin cultures, the Middle Eastern has not assimilated into American culture. I know many Arabs in America who are living in their own communities, the 2nd and 3rd generation Middle Easterners who assimilate keep their own heritage seperate, mostly when they are around family and friends who come from a similar ethnic background. I am seeing evidence of this when I look at the "belly dancing" taken out of its cultural context. You said "they have shared those cultures to become what they are today". I say they 'tried' to share those cultures(which includes MUSIC, HISTORY, LANGUAGE, CUSTOMS etc) but the only things that were actually "shared" or accepted were the shimmies and undulations.

Dipali

Hello group, what an interesting discussion. I was born in India and spent my childhood there and grew up with the culture. I suppose that’s the essence we all are talking about. Well when I see a foreigner doing an Indian classical dance or even Bollywood I think I know whether he/she is feeling the dance or just doing it. But does it bother me at all? No in fact I feel proud when I see somebody trying to learn something from my culture. I believe most of the Indian people think the same way.

Most of the Bollywood teachers that I know in Australia are not Indian. 80 % of them cant speak or understand a single word of Hindi or any other Indian language, Most of them probably will never visit India in their life time, And surprisingly some of them probably never met an Indian whom they can discuss about the culture. I saw them dancing, some are technically almost perfect, but a lot of time I don’t feel the same when I see an Indian dancer doing an Indian dance. The essence will never be there , Essence is something you get only if you are born and lived in that country or lived there from a very young age. Its more complex than we think. but somehow I do feel pleasure watching others doing my culture. All I could do is encourage them to learn some very basic things about my culture and let them do what they enjoy, The interested ones always ask if they want to know something and I am always happy to answer their query or direct them to the resource they looking for.

I am aware that many people make fun of Bollywood or they totally dance something and call Bollywood, Again don’t bother me at all. As long as people present my culture respectfully and have fun doing it I have no problem with it. When I get a chance to see a Bollywood night or something in Australia I don’t expect to feel the essence but I try to enjoy it from entertainment point of view.

When those two foxy ladies did the Kamasutra style fusion , I thought that was quite weird but very intelligent move to do , I bet they enjoyed every bit of publicity , Now am I supposed to get angry because they used Kama sutra to depict some kind of dance. And you know Kama Sutra is not all about Sex but love and it belongs to my culture.
Regards

__________________
Australian Belly dance store - Belly Dance Costumes, Bollywood & Tribal outfits.

Aisha Azar

Dear Dipali,
Did you happen to see the "what do you think of this?" thread on this forum? I would like to hear your thoughts on it.
I think that the whole Bollywood craze is based on Hindis fusing their dance and movie culture with other elements, and that done well, it retains a lot of what Hindi culture is. When you have seen hundreds of people misrepresenting what that is, you might find yourself just a little weary of dancers who present it with no cultural essence. I disagree that no one outside a culture can ever capture that essence but I think it is a limited number of people who can successfully step outside their own cultural viewpoint and into someone else's. I think it is a matter of having a lot of natural affinity for said culture.
Regards,
A'isha

perfumeshop

I suppose I am just grateful that when I danced at a party in Egypt, the reactions I got were:
an Egyptian Lady kissing me and telling me "You dance our dance beautifully" and a young man saying "You know what you are doing, don't you ..who has been teaching you ?"
So far I have been fortunate that MEers and North Africans have been pleased at my paltry attempts and even happier to know that I knew who Oum Khalthoum and M.A.Wahab were. But then I shan't venture forth onto Youtube and the lurking folks with prejudices and axes to grind.
In Egypt I have never been told this dance is not for white girls , not for black girls, not for old ladies although they did seem to expect the guys to be more macho in their dance "attitude"!

Aniseteph

Me too. It's the way these type of comments get made indiscriminately, regardless of the context - it is exactly like jeering at the mistakes of someone who is trying to learn a new language. Different if they were reading the news in that language, or writing the Queen's Speech, or teaching it, but sneering at someone genuinely trying to learn and enjoy something about your culture is the mark of a small minded idiot, IMO. Says more about them than the person they are being rude about.

Perfumeshop, your experiences are much more heartening!

Aisha Azar

Dear Anhiseteph and Group,
The problem is that if you are an inexperienced dancer who is doing a bad job of it, along comes the general public who do not know any better. They think the second rate thing that they see on YouTube, in person, or wherever is what belly dance looks like, because they do not know there is much better out there. The impression they get is that the dance is just drek.
Those who are learning a new language generally do not feel okay about posting themselves on YouTube as if they were proficient at it. This is often what amateur dancers do, without letting the audience or other dancers, or those people from countries of origin, know they ARE amateurs.
There is nothing wrong with being an amateur in an amateur context, but when one puts oneself out there as a professional, then they open themselves up to all kinds of criticism and true professionals expect that this will happen to them on one level or another. Amateurs have no right to expect less if they put themselves out there under false pretenses, which happens, very, very often. This may sound cold, but I am sick of people not taking responsibility for their actions as far as the dance goes, and then blaming others when the going gets tough. I am not saying you are doing this, but there is another side to the coin. I think we need to care most about the dance.
Regards,
A'isha

Aniseteph

If the general public are taking at face value everything they see on YouTube and expect responsible and accurate tagging then they really are incredibly stupid and deserve to believe that a fat bloke wobbling his beer gut is belly dance. As if most of them care anyway....

I completely agree about not misrepresenting ones amateur efforts. But as Moon said, comments are along the lines of "you're a .... (insert colour/ appearance/ gender/ religion/ background etc), you'll never get it, you shouldn't be doing this" are plain offensive. It sends a hate-filled message to everyone, from the ones who don't get it, don't care and just want to do their own self expressing thing in the name of belly dance, to the most responsible and dedicated genuine student.