Brea

Hi Kharmine,

I'm an anthro minor, history major...his work was often cited as an example of what can happen if things are not done well, or just the dangers of learning things from other cultures. It also could be from living in Hawai'i the last four years- there are a lot of challenges from the native people there about many things that researchers have claimed about Pacific culture.

I will look around and see if I can find a link to what my professors were talking about.

-Brea


To begin with, until I find something more scholarly, the argument between the two people on this page is what I was referring to:
Tiki Central Forums - Topic: New Theory+Facts about Easter Island/Rapa Nui?(img +txt heavy)

Ah, here's something more proper:

Within the genre of migrationist theories of Polynesian culture history, we must also mention the highly influential writings of Thor Heyerdahl, a Norwegian zoologist and adventurer who captured the world’s attention in 1947 with his daring 1947 Kon Tiki raft voyage from South America to the Tuamotu Islands. World War II had already focused much attention on the Pacific Islands, and Heyerdahl now claimed to have a theory that explained the Polynesians as deriving from successive migrations, not from Asia, but from the Americas. The full theory was published in a massive volume (Heyerdahl 1952) a few years after the Kon Tiki voyage, and Heyerdahl funded his own archaeological expedition to Easter Island and other Eastern Polynesian islands in 1955-56, in an effort to prove his origins theory. The Heyerdahl theory has not survived the test of modern archaeological research, but he must be credited with helping to spur a reinvigoration of Polynesian archaeology in the period immediately following World War II.

which is from this link:

History of Polynesian Archaeology

Aniseteph

I'm trying to picture the UK government trying to ban belly dance for being subversive... Not likely... anything that gives us exercise and keeps us from getting depressed, thereby saving the health system money, is going to be just fine with them.

maybe belly dance classes should be provided on the NHS?

Kharmine

Brea, thanks for the link!

Sometimes people forget that those before us worked in a different context, with far different equipment, knowledge, experience and opportunities.

Heyerdahl really only proved a possibility -- "primitive" people could have traveled more or less the way he did from Peru to those islands.

All of today's advantages and advances in research that Heyerdahl didn't have then can only claim that such an event did not happen, not that it was ever impossible.

That's good enough for me to respect and honor what he did, and I wouldn't get into arguments over him even if I had the academic chops to do so!

__________________
What if the hokey pokey is really what it's all about?

cathy

I don't know which is more shocking/heretical/subversive--the idea that this dance is not about enticing men (which I agree with) or the idea that it IS about sex (which I disagree that it has to be about).

Cathy

Brea

To Cathy-

I think it IS about sex, but not the way it's been portrayed. Not the sultan/harem thing. I don't understand why it can't be, or what is wrong with it being that.

-Brea

cathy

It CAN be about sex and there is nothing wrong with thinking about, seeing or portraying it that way. I just don't agree that it is innate in the form itself. It's a choice, a perspective. I believe that we don't have to be making a statement about sexuality per se in claiming our autonomy and bodies. Maybe that's the most radical and subversive idea of all and how the two points of view are connected. I am more than my body and using my body (including torso, hips & breasts) to express myself is about more than sexuality. Cathy

Aisha Azar

Dear Cathy,
So is sex a LOT more than your body and using your body. The entire purpose and draw of this dance since its very inception has been that voyeuristic chance to see the female, body and soul. In the context in which the dance was brought into the world, that had everything to do with female sexuality as a holistic thing... not just as a superficially sexy thing, but as a sexual, sensual, all inclusive thing. Sex is not something that can be separated out from the person, but is there in all that we do. It is a thread that runs through every single thing that is alive. This dance is full of sexual innuendo and meaning. It is lush and rich with it when it is well done. And the message is not sleazy, but incredibly sexy and healthy.
I think I will stop here as I do not want a repeat of our other conversation which deteriorated rapidly!!
Regards,
A'isha

cathy

Dear A'isha,

I agree that sex is not something that can be separated out from the person and is there in all that we do, and that it is complex and healthy. But I don't agree that this dance is *necessarily* or *innately* more about sexual innuendo and meaning than any other dance or human activity.

I agree that our differences of opinion on this subject have already been made clear and don't need to be rehashed. I brought it up to respond to Brea. Regards, Cathy

Shanazel

Re: Thor Heyerdahl

There are scientists who make their careers out of bashing the work and conclusions of other scientists, and there are fashions in science just as there are in literature and clothing. What was discredited in one era is discovered to have valuable grains of truth in another era. Scientists like to believe we are dispassionate, wise in the ways of research and scientific method, and ruled by a desire to know the truth, but it is awfully hard not to be attached to personal pet theories and antipathies that get in the way of knowledge.

I suppose something similar can be said for belly dancers and the search for the origins, essence, and meaning of the dance.

Aisha Azar

Dear Shanazel,
For me the litmus test is this: Ask natives from countries of origin. They know exactly what the dance is about- sex is the main answer. Some people hate to even think the Arabs might actually understand what their own dance is about, but there it is. I do not come to that conclusion of my own accord, though I probably would have eventually. I have asked literally hundreds of Arabs and a few Turks. The answer generally sounds something like this. "Belly dance is a sexy, flirty dance". there is often some further discussion about it, but it comes down to just that in the end.
Throughout written history ( and probably before),there have been countless cultures who have taken it upon themselves to decide the value and meaning of elements and concepts in other peoples' cultures. They often do this without taking the time to even ask the people. They also feel free to negate what the natives might volunteer and put their own meanings in place of actual meaning. When we try to negate what the people themselves think, we are not doing the dance a favor, but doing the people a disservice. Do we honestly think they are too dumb to understand what is incredibly obvious even to most people outside the culture? Usually dancers are the only ones who deny this sexual connection. I think in trying to clean up the image of the dance, sometimes we go too far the other way.
I am not saying that anyone here is doing this. I am not pointing fingers. I am pointing out a tendency that is inherent in ethnocentric behavior and in colonialist thinking. This dance is what it is, regardless of how we might try to clean it up and dress it demurely. Ask a Turk or an Arab.
Regards,
A'isha