But It's Art!!!!! - Page 7

Kharmine · 03-12-2007, 02:12 AM

Y'know, I hope I can point out -- without anyone taking it personally -- that this thread is supposed to be about how we talk about art.

I don't know how it got into a belief on the part of some people that it was about putting down innovation or change -- the "evolution" of art -- and particularly how THEY like to express themselves and, therefore, somehow felt 'repressed" by the discussion.

We WERE talking about how if we ask someone about their artistic concept that we really ought to get a response that isn't just meant to blow us off.

Then we got into how hard it is not to make people mad just for pointing out a mistake. How we need to use tact and courtesy in replying to a question or making a correction that should be pointed out, when it is about verifiable facts.

And how hard it can be not to offend someone by our comments, opinions, even criticism -- no matter how carefully we try to word 'em.

It's a discussion that has traveled around a bit, but now feels like it's getting sidetracked into a completely different, perennial (and personal) argument.

Let's please not. Let's go back to discussing how we can talk about art, how we can ask for explanations without putting the artist's back up, make a correction gracefully, state an opinion without being spiteful or over-zealous, respond to opinions we don't agree with, answer questions with facts that may not please everyone, etc.

sstacy123 · 03-12-2007, 02:46 AM

I'll not take it personally but I find it funny that it bothers people when topics veer off. That is the natural way of conversation.

Kharmine · 03-12-2007, 02:57 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sstacy123

I'll not take it personally but I find it funny that it bothers people when topics veer off. That is the natural way of conversation.

I absolutely agree with you. But only if it can stay civil and not be used to attack people just for having a different opinion. And not if it's to provoke arguments that aren't related to the topic and have been gone over and over and over elsewhere.

Then we just wind up like that character in one of Charles Dickens' novels -- everything discussed with him sooner or later came back to his personal obsession of what happened to King Charles II's head.

Shanazel · 03-12-2007, 03:19 AM

Following the discussion in a particular thread is not the same as face to face conversation.We do tend to wander off topic at times, but there's usually someone aware enough to pull the thread back to the topic at hand. Maybe we need a thread where people who so wish could all just go for stream of conciousness and let the topics change as they will. Maybe I will start one.

Yes, Simbal, we are serious, and assume you are too unless you plaster your posts with smiley and laughing faces. Sometimes we disagree with each other vehemently, but we mostly manage to remain friends and interested in each other despite the conflicts. I have seen very few instances where people on this forum were out to stick it to someone else, and those people don't last long.

You say you are an amateur; here's your chance to learn from a lot of people who aren't. What you do in the privacy of your own studio is up to you, but when you come into the belly dance world and repesent whatever it is you do for your own self as belly dance, you are going to get feedback you like and feedback you don't. I can hit a ball with a bat, and I can pitch across home plate, but I don't expect the Houston Astros to be impressed if while playing with my kids I give my son extra points if he stamps on each base twice. It may still be a sport, but it ain't baseball.

(Oh, lord, I hear you all moan

, another analogy. Well, at least this one is not about food so perhaps we'll all avoid munchies.)

Gabi · 03-12-2007, 03:20 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sstacy123

I'll not take it personally but I find it funny that it bothers people when topics veer off. That is the natural way of conversation.

LOL, in my experience people generally object to being "off topic" when it's not going the way they'd like.

Looks like this one is going the way of same old same old.

I think "but it's art" is a valid remark and it is a subjective one. Some people are happy to leave it at that and pick and choose what they like, some aren't happy at all.

Bottom line - people are going to do what they want when it comes to artistic endeavors and if they have an audience they will be encouraged to continue, if not they won't. Some people will continue to make art, some won't. They will all call it whatever they want to call it unless someone else is in charge who disagrees.

For me, I've decided to call it belly dance if it's belly dance movement. I am not going to be the torch bearer for authenticity or cultural aspects in this way. I am a dancer first, then a belly dancer, or a fusion dancer, or whatever develops.

That's my line in the sand for now - movement.

Simbul · 03-12-2007, 02:28 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kharmine

Ah, well, they're the words you chose to use. I did not take 'em out of context or misquote you. I pointed them out because for someone who claimed she didn't want to "start a fight," gratuitous words like these give rather the opposite impression.

"For you to come at me..." -- I wasn't aware any of us were. But I have far more legitimate reason to presume that you were including me in that "you" than you have for thinking that you were being ganged up on on this thread.

"...arrogant opinion." We are ALL encouraged to express our opinions on this forum without getting too mean or personal, and I think we tried to do that. This thread also discussed how to voice opinions, questions and corrections in a way that would be helpful and not offensive -- perhaps you missed that.

"...don't recall anyone who does improvise making a comment on this thread."
I don't recall that improvisation was ever at issue. Belly dancing is largely about improvisation. Probably EVERYONE who has commented on this thread has improvised his/her dance at some point.

...all so against evolving???" Again, your choice of words, and your assumption based on no evidence. No one here has made an argument to somehow freeze the most authentic Middle Eastern belly dance traditions we can find and not allow any innovations or changes whatsoever if we're going to call it "belly dance."

But there is a point when you have to ask is, "Is this belly dance or another dance style with belly dance moves included?" The point was, if I remember, How do you even raise the question without pissing off people who want to call it belly dance, regardless?

Which is why I suggested that you (and anyone who else who feels as you do) re-read the posts and consider the character of the post-ers (as much as you can tell), before gittin' all riled up and attacking people for having opinions you don't like or just don't understand.

No, I don't think so.

"Respect" is a hollow word when you're still choosing to assume the worst and take offense at someone's reasonably expressed opinion.

You don't agree with the opinions expressed? Then express your own -- but with reason, with maturity, with courtesy -- not the resentment of "It's only YOUR opinion," (yes, that's "just" my interpretation of your response) as if anything different from yours counts for nothing.

You took the words I used out of complete sentences which resulted in not expressing the points I was trying to make. Again cute.

I am not attacking people. If they feel that way, I will readily apologize. I am not offended. After 18 years in the military and dealing with other members from all the states, I have learned through trial and error not to have such a thin skin.

You are 100% correct that a forum is for people to communicate. I am a member of over 8 discussion groups. I am not saying for people to hold back. As the posters submitted their replies, so do I.

The problem with some posts in forums is that it doesn't always convey the posters tone or attitude. That is why I use a lot of smileys and try to be very careful with my words.

Oh, last. I am not a "she"

Simbul · 03-12-2007, 02:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Shanazel

Following the discussion in a particular thread is not the same as face to face conversation.We do tend to wander off topic at times, but there's usually someone aware enough to pull the thread back to the topic at hand. Maybe we need a thread where people who so wish could all just go for stream of conciousness and let the topics change as they will. Maybe I will start one.

Yes, Simbal, we are serious, and assume you are too unless you plaster your posts with smiley and laughing faces. Sometimes we disagree with each other vehemently, but we mostly manage to remain friends and interested in each other despite the conflicts. I have seen very few instances where people on this forum were out to stick it to someone else, and those people don't last long.

You say you are an amateur; here's your chance to learn from a lot of people who aren't. What you do in the privacy of your own studio is up to you, but when you come into the belly dance world and repesent whatever it is you do for your own self as belly dance, you are going to get feedback you like and feedback you don't. I can hit a ball with a bat, and I can pitch across home plate, but I don't expect the Houston Astros to be impressed if while playing with my kids I give my son extra points if he stamps on each base twice. It may still be a sport, but it ain't baseball.

(Oh, lord, I hear you all moan

, another analogy. Well, at least this one is not about food so perhaps we'll all avoid munchies.)

I am not arguing with you or anyone, but discussing things. Also I am not a forum flamer, I just love discussing things and that is why I belong to so many social forums.

In the long years I have been in forums, no thread has ever stuck to the original post. They all changed during the discussion because other elements had a relationship to what was being discussed.

Yes I am an amateur to belly dancing, but not to dancing. I would love to learn from the professional dancers in the group, but were we not talking about how belly dancing is interpreted and what the term "art" can be attached to?

If so, I have an opinion and have expressed it.

Why do I plaster my posts with smileys? Check my previous post.

I would like to be any of your friends, but please don't take it too seriously when I post my opinion. I am entitled to it, right?

Aisha Azar · 03-12-2007, 02:45 PM

Dear Group,
There are a couple pf points that I think need clarification. Many people think that those of us who believe that belly dance means something very specifically ethnic are against innovations in the dance.
The idea that one can only innovate by losing the ethnic essence of the dance is just way off base. I find that the native dancers from countries of origin DO innovate, and they do so without losing the basic spirit and feeling of the dance itself. Belly dance in its countries of origin is an evolving art, but because of the cultural connections, the dance retains its spirit and feeling. It is a dynamic art that moves in its own cultures and with them, taking up influences and putting their own unique ethnic spin on them..
RE the idea that authentic belly dancers do not improvise: MOST authentic dancers improvise. Even when they choreograph for a solo dance, that choreography is much different than the western idea of choreography. There is no such thing as a movement arrangement being locked in stone for them. The reason is because the music and the physical dancer and the emotional feeling of the moment that is the result of the combination of the two, is not going to be the same two times in a row. The physical body is another musical instrument that expresses the abstract cultural/emotional content of the music and manifests it visually, along with the feeling that the music gives the dancer. This can only be done when there is room for improvisation.
Regards,
A'isha

Simbul · 03-12-2007, 02:47 PM

Honest, this is my last amateur opinion!!!

Lets say there was a belly dance competition and the requirement was to demonstrate proficiency in belly dance in its traditional form. I would dance it just like that.

Now if the competition called for the dancer to show talent, innovation, etc... I would go all out.

When I "TRY" to belly dance, I feel good. For some reason I feel a type of joy. I cannot explain it properly, but it is like letting go. The music, the grace, etc... all of it loosens something in me. If I were out and dancing and someone approached me to ask what I was doing, I may say "belly dancing". Their reply could be that it isn't true belly dancing. Knowing how nonchalant I am, I would most likely say "not for you" and continue enjoying myself. Now if the person persisted, I would quickly come to think they are very rude and do as I always do. Scream over the sound system "LEAVE ME ALONE!!!!, I JUST MISSED THE HOOK"...

Aisha Azar · 03-12-2007, 02:54 PM

Dear Simbul,
Again, the message that I get from you here is that it is all about YOU. In belly dance, that is never the case. It is in part about the dancer her/himself, but a LOT about other things; the nuances in the music, the cultural expression, the quality of the human condition seen through the combined eyes of the musicains and the dancer, etc.
There is not much else I can say if you truly do not want to be convinced of the amazingness of this dance as something outside yourself. Art stands alone, you know, and is a thing in itself with or without us as the egocentric point around which we might think it evolves.
Regards,
A'isha

03-12-2007, 02:12 AM	#61 (permalink)
Kharmine V.I.P. Join Date: Nov 2006 Location: Foot of the Rocky Mountains Posts: 1,248	Y'know, I hope I can point out -- without anyone taking it personally -- that this thread is supposed to be about how we talk about art. I don't know how it got into a belief on the part of some people that it was about putting down innovation or change -- the "evolution" of art -- and particularly how THEY like to express themselves and, therefore, somehow felt 'repressed" by the discussion. We WERE talking about how if we ask someone about their artistic concept that we really ought to get a response that isn't just meant to blow us off. Then we got into how hard it is not to make people mad just for pointing out a mistake. How we need to use tact and courtesy in replying to a question or making a correction that should be pointed out, when it is about verifiable facts. And how hard it can be not to offend someone by our comments, opinions, even criticism -- no matter how carefully we try to word 'em. It's a discussion that has traveled around a bit, but now feels like it's getting sidetracked into a completely different, perennial (and personal) argument. Let's please not. Let's go back to discussing how we can talk about art, how we can ask for explanations without putting the artist's back up, make a correction gracefully, state an opinion without being spiteful or over-zealous, respond to opinions we don't agree with, answer questions with facts that may not please everyone, etc. __________________ What if the hokey pokey is really what it's all about? Last edited by Kharmine; 03-12-2007 at 02:20 AM. Reason: clarification

03-12-2007, 02:45 PM	#68 (permalink)
Aisha Azar V.I.P. Join Date: Jul 2006 Location: Pacific Northwest USA Posts: 4,518	Art Dear Group, There are a couple pf points that I think need clarification. Many people think that those of us who believe that belly dance means something very specifically ethnic are against innovations in the dance. The idea that one can only innovate by losing the ethnic essence of the dance is just way off base. I find that the native dancers from countries of origin DO innovate, and they do so without losing the basic spirit and feeling of the dance itself. Belly dance in its countries of origin is an evolving art, but because of the cultural connections, the dance retains its spirit and feeling. It is a dynamic art that moves in its own cultures and with them, taking up influences and putting their own unique ethnic spin on them.. RE the idea that authentic belly dancers do not improvise: MOST authentic dancers improvise. Even when they choreograph for a solo dance, that choreography is much different than the western idea of choreography. There is no such thing as a movement arrangement being locked in stone for them. The reason is because the music and the physical dancer and the emotional feeling of the moment that is the result of the combination of the two, is not going to be the same two times in a row. The physical body is another musical instrument that expresses the abstract cultural/emotional content of the music and manifests it visually, along with the feeling that the music gives the dancer. This can only be done when there is room for improvisation. Regards, A'isha

03-12-2007, 02:47 PM	#69 (permalink)
Simbul Junior Member Join Date: Dec 2006 Location: Washington DC Posts: 21	Last, I PROMISE!!! Honest, this is my last amateur opinion!!! Lets say there was a belly dance competition and the requirement was to demonstrate proficiency in belly dance in its traditional form. I would dance it just like that. Now if the competition called for the dancer to show talent, innovation, etc... I would go all out. When I "TRY" to belly dance, I feel good. For some reason I feel a type of joy. I cannot explain it properly, but it is like letting go. The music, the grace, etc... all of it loosens something in me. If I were out and dancing and someone approached me to ask what I was doing, I *may* say "belly dancing". Their reply could be that it isn't true belly dancing. Knowing how nonchalant I am, I would most likely say "not for you" and continue enjoying myself. Now if the person persisted, I would quickly come to think they are very rude and do as I always do. Scream over the sound system "LEAVE ME ALONE!!!!, I JUST MISSED THE HOOK"...

03-12-2007, 02:54 PM	#70 (permalink)
Aisha Azar V.I.P. Join Date: Jul 2006 Location: Pacific Northwest USA Posts: 4,518	Art Dear Simbul, Again, the message that I get from you here is that it is all about YOU. In belly dance, that is never the case. It is in part about the dancer her/himself, but a LOT about other things; the nuances in the music, the cultural expression, the quality of the human condition seen through the combined eyes of the musicains and the dancer, etc. There is not much else I can say if you truly do not want to be convinced of the amazingness of this dance as something outside yourself. Art stands alone, you know, and is a thing in itself with or without us as the egocentric point around which we might think it evolves. Regards, A'isha

03-12-2007, 02:46 AM	#62 (permalink)
sstacy123 Member Join Date: Nov 2006 Location: Birmingham, Alabama, USA Posts: 488	I'll not take it personally but I find it funny that it bothers people when topics veer off. That is the natural way of conversation.

03-12-2007, 03:19 AM	#64 (permalink)
Shanazel Moderator Join Date: Jul 2006 Location: Rocky Mountains USA Posts: 4,684	Following the discussion in a particular thread is not the same as face to face conversation.We do tend to wander off topic at times, but there's usually someone aware enough to pull the thread back to the topic at hand. Maybe we need a thread where people who so wish could all just go for stream of conciousness and let the topics change as they will. Maybe I will start one. Yes, Simbal, we are serious, and assume you are too unless you plaster your posts with smiley and laughing faces. Sometimes we disagree with each other vehemently, but we mostly manage to remain friends and interested in each other despite the conflicts. I have seen very few instances where people on this forum were out to stick it to someone else, and those people don't last long. You say you are an amateur; here's your chance to learn from a lot of people who aren't. What you do in the privacy of your own studio is up to you, but when you come into the belly dance world and repesent whatever it is you do for your own self as belly dance, you are going to get feedback you like and feedback you don't. I can hit a ball with a bat, and I can pitch across home plate, but I don't expect the Houston Astros to be impressed if while playing with my kids I give my son extra points if he stamps on each base twice. It may still be a sport, but it ain't baseball. (Oh, lord, I hear you all moan , another analogy. Well, at least this one is not about food so perhaps we'll all avoid munchies.)