Aisha Azar

Dear Shanazel,
Responses in context below.

Dear A'isha,

I didn't say anything that is done can be called belly dance, but I don't agree that the term is as exclusive as you suggest. What I have noticed about lines is that dancers tend to draw them so that they themselves are on the positive side of things .

I am happy that you are accepted and admired by the ex-pat Arab commmunity- that is an honor and a boon to you as a dancer and a person, and a boon to us who correspond with and learn from you. But immersed? I think it is impossible to immerse oneself in a foreign culture when one does not live in the culture, does not speak the language fluently, and does not practice the day to day customs of the culture. One can become very knowledgable and sympathetic and accepted within a community of transplanted people, but I think that is different from being immersed in the original culture.

A'isha write:.... I don't recall mentioning myself as one who has immersed herself. I have never lived in the Middle East. I have had Arabs as my closest freinds for many years, both Arab Americans and those who just got off the plane. I am not sure what it is about me that makes Arabs feel trust, etc,nor why I feel so at home with them, in general, but that is the way it is.

I'm off to pick up my daughter, but will look forward to any further discourse on the subject. I am curious: which came first with you? The dance or your involvement with the culture? What I mean is, did you start dancing first, then find your way into the culture, or the other way around? I know that is a rather personal question, but if you are willing to answer it, thank you in advance.

A'isha writes: I guess that if I have this big a mouth on the subject, I should be able to answer a couple of personal questions, hunh?? My father was in the military and he lived for awhile in different areas in North Africa.We had Middle Eastern stuff in our house when I was a little girl. He loved Arab and Hindi music and we had a radio of some kind that allowed us to listen to music from around the world. He also had Arab friends who sometimes came to our house. In our photo albums when I was a kid there were pictures of Arab friends of my father, buildings, etc, from N. Africa. I own some of those photos now because my mother gave them to me when my Dad died. I guess I had a fascination with the culture from when I was a little kid, but not the dance since I did not know it existed until I was about 14. The first time I saw the dance, I went, "Oh, my God, I need to know how to do that", and have spent my entire adult life learning.
Regards,
A'isha

Shanazel[/quote]

Shanazel

Hi, A'isha.

A'isha write:.... I don't recall mentioning myself as one who has immersed herself.

Sorry, that was an extrapolation on my part. Thanks for answering my nosy questions and letting me know you better.

Shanazel

Kharmine

A'isha. I hope you didn't feel any criticism was implied.

You're a forthright person, but definitely not one who seems to think being rude is excusable if one is not only right but passionate about what one believes.

I don't think the answer to misinformation is to jump down some naive person's throat with full combat boots on. And I have not observed you doing that.

But I have observed a grand dame in the belly dance scene who is justifiably authoritative because she truly is knowledgeable and intelligent do just that, several times. The highhanded, sarcastic and condescending tone she takes on with some poor bastard whose only sin is to pose a naive question or naively repeat some misinformation makes me grit my teeth.

I wish she'd write a book. Failing that, I wish she'd colloborate with other knowledgeable people into writing the kind of FAQ for a web site such as this one that we can use it to help combat the kind of fluff-bunny misinformation and self-serving lies that float around now.

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What if the hokey pokey is really what it's all about?

Aisha Azar

Dear Kharmine,
I guess that occasionally I DO get a little bit sensitive because I have been called, rude, egotistical, insensitive, etc., though I REALLY try hard to be forthright without being rude. I hope that I succeed at least most most of the time.
I, too have seen some people in this business be VERY condescending to students and other professionals. Sometimes those people are not even well known, and still like to act like they have the right to be nasty to people who are asking simple questions. I have had it happen to me when I have attended workshops. Hence, when I wrote my article about the Student/Instructor Relationship in Middle Eastern dance, one of my focus points was "A Student has the right to ask questions and have them answered respectfully".
Your point was valid and well worded, and I did not take offense as such, but did want to explain lest I seemed occasionally to come on a bit too strong. I think your posts are always well written and worth thinking about.
Regards,
A'isha

Kharmine

IMHO, you certainly succeed. (And thanks for the kind words, in return!)

Here's the problem: We have a LOT of misinformation being perpetuated about Middle Eastern style belly dancing (as opposed to other types of Middle Eastern folk dancing such as the dabke)

Whadda we supposed to do? Refrain from pointing out mistakes lest we come out sounding the least little bit old fogey or mean or (gasp!) bitchy?

There will always be people who don't know how to handle anything in the least bit like criticism, and there will always be people who don't dish out corrections well. Let's face it, there isn't much that can be done about fixing those folks. They'll eventually grow up or they won't.

All anyone can do is act as counter-balance -- keep putting the truth out there in as graciously as we can. It helps if we can cite articles, books and other kinds of resources. Then if we can politely point out there are well-researched resources out there, and hope that helps defuse some of the tension.

Because the ones we really want to reach are the ones who really want to be educated, both on the facts and on good manners. So --- you go, girl!

__________________
What if the hokey pokey is really what it's all about?

Shanazel

No, we become BOBs, and the b-word that is commonly meant as an insult becomes a badge of honor.

Recnadocir

Back to the original post (oh, so long ago!):

At the recent annual meetings of the International Society of the Performing Arts in NYC, the definition of art was a (and is perennially a) hot topic. The general consensus seems to be that form and content are required, and neither should completely dominate the other.

Kharmine

Ah, yes, but what is "form" and what is "content"? Those might seem like clearly defined we-can-all-understand-what-they-mean terms, but I assure you a good bullshit artist will argue that "meaning" is "meaningless" except for the interpretation an individual chooses to give it.

We really haven't strayed off the original topic - how we approach questioning, correcting, and even criticizing the artist is part of how we respond to art.

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What if the hokey pokey is really what it's all about?

Simbul

Wow. Are you all serious?

This reminds me of the arguments in the 80's when it came to American karate and now mixed martial arts. The traditionalists screamed that is wasn't true martial arts.

If there isn't a legal belly dance body that sets the requirements for the dance, how are you all to tell the person what they are performing isn't "art" in their definition? Some of your arguments come from the perspective that since the person has thrown in unfamiliar moves it disqualifies them from saying they are belly dancing or that their expression isn't an art form. It is their expression of art. I can understand your observation that what they are performing isn't traditional or classic, but to dismiss it in such a way is very snobbish. Some of you even mentioned the possibility of approaching the person and challenging their expressions, but only to dismiss it because it doesn't agree with your perspective of what art is. What hubris...lol. Look at some of the paintings in NYC, Chicago, or DC's art galleries. In my opinion some are horrible, but the painter or photographer sees it as art. Who am I to challenge their outlook. I simply wouldn't buy it.

I am a amateur when it comes to belly dancing, but dancing in itself is something I have done since I could walk. I couldn't hold a candle to your hip drops, but I am willing to learn. Now when I do get the basics and traditional forms down, you had best believe I am going to improvise. That is what I do. I wouldn't find it out of place if any of you approached me and asked what dance am I doing, but would be highly offended it you said my expression of personal art isn't "art". That implies your personal opinion is the stamp to what the world claims as art. Some of your posts include classical examples of art, but none talk about modern art.

I consider belly dancing as a beautiful expression of freedom and joy. At least that is what I feel when I try to dance it. For you to come at me with such an approach wouldn't steal my freedom, but may momentarily dampen my joy as I deliver a reposte to your arrogant opinion of what "art" is.

I am not trying to start a fight, but I don't recall anyone who does improvise making a comment on this thread. Again, original/classic belly dance is the start, but why are you all so against it evolving???

Kharmine

"For you to come at me..."?
"...arrogant opinion..."?
"...don't recall anyone who does improvise making a comment on this thread."?
"...all so against evolving???"?

The nicest thing I can suggest is re-reading the posts in this thread thoroughly before you make another riposte.

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What if the hokey pokey is really what it's all about?