But It's Art!!!!! - Page 4

Shanazel · 03-08-2007, 06:15 PM

Thanks for the input, A'isha. Under great duress, I choreographed dances for my continuing students for the simple reason that they like to dance together, but I am never comfortable with it. They are all well aware of this and tease me about moving out of my comfort zone. Right now we are doing a veil dance, and if I can ever get them to quit stepping to the count like little soldiers, it will be pretty.

The more I read and watch and learn, the more I realize how based in Egyptian style many of my teachers were, though they called their style American cabaret. Curious. It may be the reason I get so hot and bothered when I see some of the things that pass for belly dance, and why my dividing line of what is belly dance and what is not includes AmCab. Of course, that could just be ego, too.

The music is there, the costuming is there, and reacting to the music with heart and body is there. Am Cab tends to mix music and styles with far greater abandon than is acceptable in purer forms, but that's largely because when many of us started dancing, we didn't have access to native dancers and just did the best we could with what we had, evolving as we went along. I remember the excitement in one of my early classes when the teacher got back from taking a workshop with a REAL middle eastern dancer and could show us what she learned.

Hmm, talk about stream of conciousness. Hope that made a little sense.

Shanazel

Aniseteph · 03-08-2007, 07:53 PM

As a student I feel a bit uncomfortable with choreographies too. On the one hand it is a great way to make sure you repeat and repeat till you don't have to think about it (and can get round to dancing it

instead of thinking). Also hearing the music over and over tunes the ear in so you can eventually realise why that move fits with that phrase. Short exercises just aren't enough repetition for me to get to that stage.

But it's performing it, all in rows like in class...

There's no interaction between the dancers, everyone smiles inanely or frowns with concentration, and I find it SOO difficult to put any feeling or expression into it. I don't want to look like the nutter overdoing it, so something is most definitely missing for me.

Aisha Azar · 03-08-2007, 10:11 PM

Dear Shanazel,
.... I don't mean to rain on the parade, but... I would not think of going someplace for a workshop and coming right back and showing my students what I learned. I need time to understand the movement in some kind of depth, and I also need time to see that movement in action and in my own body before I can begin to teach it. I think that teaching it before there is a depth of understanding on the part of the instructor is one way in which movement has gotten misunderstood and misinterpreted.
Re AmCAb: For me, the bands of the 70s here in the States did not usually have that Middle Eastern feeling for some reason, or at least very rarely, even when they were Middle Eastern. The dancing was not very Middle Eastern in its essence for me either. But I did start with Arabs and so perhaps my expectations were different. I can remember watching the dancing of the time and thinking and feeling that it was all just a little off as I began to become more discerning as a student and as a dancer. It was never really quite Middle Eastern in its feel. It needs more than just reacting to the music with heart. For me there must be that depth of cultural connection as well, which I find to be missing from AmCab. I greatly admire good AmCab dancers, but do not think of them in terms of authentic belly dance. The difference for me lies in that cultural essence. It is the thing that lets us know we are watching a real Egyptian or Lebanese or Turkish dancer, and how they really are different from the average western dancer, and from each other.
Regards,
A'isha

Kharmine · 03-09-2007, 03:23 AM

I haven't been studying belly dance for that long, but I've done other dance styles which have their own particular moves. It seems to me that there's nothing snobbish or obstructionist or whatever about trying to keep a "traditional" style separate from all the "fusing" going on.

Granted, even that which we tend to identity as "Middle Eastern" has been influenced by other cultures and trends over centuries. That's just part of art, it does evolve.

But when I do English country dancing, it can be a dance from the medieval era or it could have been written last year, come from northern England or New York City, and they can be very different, yet both be recognized as English country immediately by anyone who knows the genre.

There's a vocabulary of movement they share, there's a distinct style of music even with different tempos and phrasings. And the tradition is to have live music, done with acoustic instruments as much as possible.

Ditto for Morris dancing, which is a folk dance my husband performs. Very, very old dating back to pagan times and yet people are creating new Morris dances all the time.

However, nobody tries to throw in a cha cha cha movement and a few steps of The Hustle or put it to electronic instruments and still call it English country or Morris.

IMHO, those of us who are interested with preserving the older traditions and anything even close to authentic Middle Eastern dance need to educate ourselves as much as possible. We need to share information on credible sources and try to see it's as widely available as possible. We can't let people repeat nonsense and self-serving crap.

But we also need to find ways to respond with finesse. I've seen what happens when well-meaning but self-righteous people tear a new one out of some naive person who repeats a myth. We don't need to build resentment while we poke through the smokescreen.

Aisha Azar · 03-09-2007, 02:16 PM

Dear Kharmine,
I have been dancing now for 33 years. During that time, I was at first indifferent to and rather ignorant of the fact that most people were not doing authentic belly dance. Then, as I took the dance very seriously and knew it would be my life's work, I got more serious and began to study the differences and began to understand that some dance was authentic and some was innovated. Unfortunately, most innovations seem to shy far away from any cultural connection or essence, as Shanazel stated. At first I was very politically correct, would not say anything in public, etc. After awhile the things that were being referred to as belly dance got further and further from the spirit and essence of the dance.... and I was still very nice when I tried to point this out. Then came a dance being called belly dance that was so far away from the reality of the dance, that it was simply an abomination. For me, that was the breaking point. I now no longer go out of my way to be ultra nice and not to step on any toes. Many people are now stepping all over the dance itself without gving a dman as long as they get to satisfy their little egotistical leanings. Much of the time they do so under the umbrella of belly dance because they would not be accepted as dancers in any other genre. There is just a point where we must start to roar. I am at that point and so are many others, who are now speaking out against all sorts of acts referring themselves as belly dance that are in no way related or have the slightest flavor of the dance.
Many innovations are wonderful, artistic, tasteful, beautiful, inspired, spiritual, etc. But... they are still not belly dance. What I found is that as long as I was quiet and nice, no one really seemed to care or get involved. When I stopped being quiet and nice about 15 years ago, it got people's attention. Now, I see that this issue is being discussed on all kinds of forums in all kinds of places. As with any worthwhile cause, there will be some exploding tempers, insults, etc, but in the end, the issue is now at the forefront and getting the attention it needs in order to begin to solve a very serious problem. I do not regret a single thing that I have ever said or written, and I would do so again in the same tone of voice, because it has had more effect than my years of being a really nice person about the issue. I give credit where credit is due, and when someone really is an artist, regardless of what they are doing, I acknowledge that. I just refuse to buy into what many people create as "belly dance". However, often the fact that it is not belly dance does not stop it from being really fine dance of some other kind.
I have been approached several times by other professionals who have asked me if I think my openness on the subject has hurt my dance career. If only this was really about my career; the choice would be easy. My only reply can be, that I feel that my openness has not hurt me as much as all of the stuff done in the name of belly dance is hurting the dance itself. In the end, for me, it really is about the dance, though many just feel that I am trouble maker and nay sayer.
Regards,
A'isha

Shanazel · 03-09-2007, 04:22 PM

Dear A'isha,

That particular parade was too many years ago to be rained on now.

I understand your point about AmCab, though I don't wholeheartedly embrace it. There's that word "authentic" again. Authentic Egyptian, Turkish, etc.? No. But one of my teachers was a first generation American and there was another who'd lived in Cairo until she was thirteen, but who learned to dance here. The atmosphere in their homes was very different from mine, very middle eastern and, to me, exotic. Their dance evolved differently than it would have had they stayed in the middle east, but to say it was not authentic? That would be presumptuous.

I doubt very much that Turkish style has remained pure of any Egyptian influence over the years, or that Lebanese style has never adopted anything from the Turks. Are styles so influenced no longer authentic representations of their country of origin? How about my college friend from Iran who belly danced, but who ferociously insisted that she was NOT an Arab, that she was Persian? She is middle eastern, she belly dances, she is not Arab- is it still belly dance if she doesn't have an Arabic sensibility but is still middle eastern?

Anoush, Farrah, and Mona's heritage was no less middle eastern than that of someone who never left Cairo. Same for middle eastern bands in America composed of people of middle eastern extraction. If in America middle eastern dance and music evolves into something still middle eastern but recognizably different from what evolved in Lebanon or Turkey, is the result no longer authentic? It's an interesting and debatable point.

Thank you for another interesting and thought provoking episode.

Shanazel

Aisha Azar · 03-09-2007, 05:03 PM

Dear Kharmine,
From my own experience with teaching Arab Americans, I can say that they are often as American as they are Arab, unless they spent a long period of time in the Middle East, for example, came here as adults. The atmosphere IS different in Arab American homes, but to say it is "Middle Eastern" as such is another story. I wrote a series about the Arab women that I know who have spent their lives trying to bridge the gap betwen their roots and their present situation. Depending on their ages, their social standing and a LOT of other factors, some are far more Americanized than others. Usually,if they are not living a secluded life, the become more American every year.
There is such a thing as "Arab American, or "Turkish American" music. I have a wonderful CD called, "Music of the Arab Americans", tracing the innovations back to early 20th century. There is a LOT of difference between the music from home and what is done here, and there has been for a long time. The music has truned into something else other than Middle Eastern and the musicians themselves do not deny it. In fact, usually only westerners deny it is something new. Just like the American girls who are innovating, I have heard many of my young Arab students say the words, "I do my own thing".
Regards,
A'isha

Shanazel · 03-09-2007, 05:33 PM

Dear A'isha,

I think you were talking to me and not Kharmine.

I agree, there is Arab American music. There is also Arab American belly dance. And there is AmCab belly dance. The Arab American evolved from Authentic (that word again) middle eastern dance and music. Am Cab evolved from both, staying with the music, costuming, and emotional response to music as far as possible. No westerner not raised in the middle east is going to be able to express genuine middle eastern feeling in her dances, however well she mimics it. I don't think that means that a westerner can't learn to do a very creditable Turkish or Egyptian dance, but if true unadulterated middle eastern essence is necessary for a dance to be called belly dance, then none of us westerners are going to achieve it emotionally without long, perhaps life long, immersion in the middle east itself, and not just in the culture as brought to America by expatriate Arabs, who, as you say, become Americanized to one degree or another.

To take it in its strictest form, only a born and bred middle eastern dancer who is immersed in her culture and truly personifies middle eastern essence can perform authentic belly dance. And when does that essence become too deluted with outside influences to be considered authentic? When she watches too many videos? Makes too many trips to Great Britain and developes as taste for punk rock? Incorporates wider arms into her dance because she took a few ballet lessons and decided if Samia could do it, so can she? Moves to Austin, Texas and ends up with a band composed of ex-pat Lebanese?

One of the most interesting things about participating in this forum is discovering where and why people draw the line between what is belly dance and what is not. That in itself has been a remarkable education.

Shanazel

Aisha Azar · 03-09-2007, 06:17 PM

Dear Shanazel,
Oh, dear, Yes, I was responding to you and not Kharmine. Apologies to both of you!!
Responses below.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Shanazel

Dear A'isha,

I think you were talking to me and not Kharmine.

I agree, there is Arab American music. There is also Arab American belly dance. And there is AmCab belly dance.
\

A'isha writes:Belly dance has a specific ethnic meaning and is not in any way American!!

The Arab American evolved from Authentic (that word again) middle eastern dance and music. Am Cab evolved from both, staying with the music, costuming, and emotional response to music as far as possible.

A'isha wqrites:I and most authentic dancers find this not to be true. There is very little of Middle Eastern essence in AMCab or other innovations because of the cultural disconnect.

No westerner not raised in the middle east is going to be able to express genuine middle eastern feeling in her dances, however well she mimics it.

A'isha writes: I disagree. There are some few dancers who get it because they inherently understand something about the cultural thing that is usually not perceived. I do not know what causes this, but I have seen it in several western dancers.

I don't think that means that a westerner can't learn to do a very creditable Turkish or Egyptian dance, but if true unadulterated middle eastern essence is necessary for a dance to be called belly dance, then none of us westerners are going to achieve it emotionally without long, perhaps life long, immersion in the middle east itself, and not just in the culture as brought to America by expatriate Arabs, who, as you say, become Americanized to one degree or another.

A'isha writes: And so, because it would be difficult to become an authentic ethnic belly dancer, then we should just name anything that we do "belly dance"? I am not sure that sounds logical to me. It IS difficult to immerse oneself in a foreign culture, but not impossible. And the point is that people should do whatever they want, but they should be very specific in their labeling. this is not about who can or who can not learn to belly dance. it is about truth in labeling. I think there is much out there that can be considered really fine dancing, just not really fine belly dancing. I was having dinner one night with an Arab musician who has lived in America for about 20 years and happened to be playing that night with a World music band. We began to discuss a certain very well known dancer and one of the American band members stated she was his favorite belly dancer. I said that I also thought that she was a good dancer, but that did he really think she was a good belly dancer? The Arab musician popped up and said "No!" very emphatically. He then got a little embarrassed and more quietly told the American why she was not a good belly dancer. It was about feeling and how the dancer related to music and how she did not do the movements in quite the way to be a belly dancer. It is not just me who sees and acknowledges this disconnect.

To take it in its strictest form, only a born and bred middle eastern dancer who is immersed in her culture and truly personifies middle eastern essence can perform authentic belly dance. And when does that essence become too deluted with outside influences to be considered authentic?

A'isha writes:I still disagree that only natives can do the dance with true spirit and essence, though I do feel that there are far fewer belly dancers than we hear advertised as such. Essence is usually not diluted in the cultural setting because essence is the very soul of the culture and usually that is why innovations in countires of origin still have that right feeling, no matter what. Essence is the ingredient that makes the dance what it is. It is what makes Reda's attempts at ballet often look really wrong. It is what makes Dina still Egyptian no matter how short her skirt.

When she watches too many videos? Makes too many trips to Great Britain and developes as taste for punk rock? Incorporates wider arms into her dance because she took a few ballet lessons and decided if Samia could do it, so can she? Moves to Austin, Texas and ends up with a band composed of ex-pat Lebanese?

A'isha writes: Actually Mouna Said danced often in Britian and never lost an ounce of essence.... My first teacher lived much of her adult life in California, but still had it. Essence is not what you do, it's who you are!!

One of the most interesting things about participating in this forum is discovering where and why people draw the line between what is belly dance and what is not. That in itself has been a remarkable education.

A'isha writes: I think its interesting, too. I find that most participants are not sure where they draw the line.... and that's probably because most of those line are so darn fuzzy!!

Regards,
A'isha

Shanazel

Shanazel · 03-09-2007, 07:14 PM

"A'isha writes:Belly dance has a specific ethnic meaning and is not in any way American!!"

"A'isha writes: And so, because it would be difficult to become an authentic ethnic belly dancer, then we should just name anything that we do "belly dance"? I am not sure that sounds logical to me. It IS difficult to immerse oneself in a foreign culture, but not impossible."

Dear A'isha,

I didn't say anything that is done can be called belly dance, but I don't agree that the term is as exclusive as you suggest. What I have noticed about lines is that dancers tend to draw them so that they themselves are on the positive side of things

.

I am happy that you are accepted and admired by the ex-pat Arab commmunity- that is an honor and a boon to you as a dancer and a person, and a boon to us who correspond with and learn from you. But immersed? I think it is impossible to immerse oneself in a foreign culture when one does not live in the culture, does not speak the language fluently, and does not practice the day to day customs of the culture. One can become very knowledgable and sympathetic and accepted within a community of transplanted people, but I think that is different from being immersed in the original culture.

I'm off to pick up my daughter, but will look forward to any further discourse on the subject. I am curious: which came first with you? The dance or your involvement with the culture? What I mean is, did you start dancing first, then find your way into the culture, or the other way around? I know that is a rather personal question, but if you are willing to answer it, thank you in advance.

Shanazel

03-08-2007, 10:11 PM	#33 (permalink)
Aisha Azar V.I.P. Join Date: Jul 2006 Location: Pacific Northwest USA Posts: 4,518	Art, etc. Dear Shanazel, .... I don't mean to rain on the parade, but... I would not think of going someplace for a workshop and coming right back and showing my students what I learned. I need time to understand the movement in some kind of depth, and I also need time to see that movement in action and in my own body before I can begin to teach it. I think that teaching it before there is a depth of understanding on the part of the instructor is one way in which movement has gotten misunderstood and misinterpreted. Re AmCAb: For me, the bands of the 70s here in the States did not usually have that Middle Eastern feeling for some reason, or at least very rarely, even when they were Middle Eastern. The dancing was not very Middle Eastern in its essence for me either. But I did start with Arabs and so perhaps my expectations were different. I can remember watching the dancing of the time and thinking and feeling that it was all just a little off as I began to become more discerning as a student and as a dancer. It was never really quite Middle Eastern in its feel. It needs more than just reacting to the music with heart. For me there must be that depth of cultural connection as well, which I find to be missing from AmCab. I greatly admire good AmCab dancers, but do not think of them in terms of authentic belly dance. The difference for me lies in that cultural essence. It is the thing that lets us know we are watching a real Egyptian or Lebanese or Turkish dancer, and how they really are different from the average western dancer, and from each other. Regards, A'isha Last edited by Aisha Azar; 03-08-2007 at 10:12 PM. Reason: typo

03-09-2007, 03:23 AM	#34 (permalink)
Kharmine V.I.P. Join Date: Nov 2006 Location: Foot of the Rocky Mountains Posts: 1,248	I haven't been studying belly dance for that long, but I've done other dance styles which have their own particular moves. It seems to me that there's nothing snobbish or obstructionist or whatever about trying to keep a "traditional" style separate from all the "fusing" going on. Granted, even that which we tend to identity as "Middle Eastern" has been influenced by other cultures and trends over centuries. That's just part of art, it does evolve. But when I do English country dancing, it can be a dance from the medieval era or it could have been written last year, come from northern England or New York City, and they can be very different, yet both be recognized as English country immediately by anyone who knows the genre. There's a vocabulary of movement they share, there's a distinct style of music even with different tempos and phrasings. And the tradition is to have live music, done with acoustic instruments as much as possible. Ditto for Morris dancing, which is a folk dance my husband performs. Very, very old dating back to pagan times and yet people are creating new Morris dances all the time. However, nobody tries to throw in a cha cha cha movement and a few steps of The Hustle or put it to electronic instruments and still call it English country or Morris. IMHO, those of us who are interested with preserving the older traditions and anything even close to authentic Middle Eastern dance need to educate ourselves as much as possible. We need to share information on credible sources and try to see it's as widely available as possible. We can't let people repeat nonsense and self-serving crap. But we also need to find ways to respond with finesse. I've seen what happens when well-meaning but self-righteous people tear a new one out of some naive person who repeats a myth. We don't need to build resentment while we poke through the smokescreen. __________________ What if the hokey pokey is really what it's all about?

03-09-2007, 02:16 PM	#35 (permalink)
Aisha Azar V.I.P. Join Date: Jul 2006 Location: Pacific Northwest USA Posts: 4,518	Art Dear Kharmine, I have been dancing now for 33 years. During that time, I was at first indifferent to and rather ignorant of the fact that most people were not doing authentic belly dance. Then, as I took the dance very seriously and knew it would be my life's work, I got more serious and began to study the differences and began to understand that some dance was authentic and some was innovated. Unfortunately, most innovations seem to shy far away from any cultural connection or essence, as Shanazel stated. At first I was very politically correct, would not say anything in public, etc. After awhile the things that were being referred to as belly dance got further and further from the spirit and essence of the dance.... and I was still very nice when I tried to point this out. Then came a dance being called belly dance that was so far away from the reality of the dance, that it was simply an abomination. For me, that was the breaking point. I now no longer go out of my way to be ultra nice and not to step on any toes. Many people are now stepping all over the dance itself without gving a dman as long as they get to satisfy their little egotistical leanings. Much of the time they do so under the umbrella of belly dance because they would not be accepted as dancers in any other genre. There is just a point where we must start to roar. I am at that point and so are many others, who are now speaking out against all sorts of acts referring themselves as belly dance that are in no way related or have the slightest flavor of the dance. Many innovations are wonderful, artistic, tasteful, beautiful, inspired, spiritual, etc. But... they are still not belly dance. What I found is that as long as I was quiet and nice, no one really seemed to care or get involved. When I stopped being quiet and nice about 15 years ago, it got people's attention. Now, I see that this issue is being discussed on all kinds of forums in all kinds of places. As with any worthwhile cause, there will be some exploding tempers, insults, etc, but in the end, the issue is now at the forefront and getting the attention it needs in order to begin to solve a very serious problem. I do not regret a single thing that I have ever said or written, and I would do so again in the same tone of voice, because it has had more effect than my years of being a really nice person about the issue. I give credit where credit is due, and when someone really is an artist, regardless of what they are doing, I acknowledge that. I just refuse to buy into what many people create as "belly dance". However, often the fact that it is not belly dance does not stop it from being really fine dance of some other kind. I have been approached several times by other professionals who have asked me if I think my openness on the subject has hurt my dance career. If only this was really about my career; the choice would be easy. My only reply can be, that I feel that my openness has not hurt me as much as all of the stuff done in the name of belly dance is hurting the dance itself. In the end, for me, it really is about the dance, though many just feel that I am trouble maker and nay sayer. Regards, A'isha

03-09-2007, 05:03 PM	#37 (permalink)
Aisha Azar V.I.P. Join Date: Jul 2006 Location: Pacific Northwest USA Posts: 4,518	Art, etc. Dear Kharmine, From my own experience with teaching Arab Americans, I can say that they are often as American as they are Arab, unless they spent a long period of time in the Middle East, for example, came here as adults. The atmosphere IS different in Arab American homes, but to say it is "Middle Eastern" as such is another story. I wrote a series about the Arab women that I know who have spent their lives trying to bridge the gap betwen their roots and their present situation. Depending on their ages, their social standing and a LOT of other factors, some are far more Americanized than others. Usually,if they are not living a secluded life, the become more American every year. There is such a thing as "Arab American, or "Turkish American" music. I have a wonderful CD called, "Music of the Arab Americans", tracing the innovations back to early 20th century. There is a LOT of difference between the music from home and what is done here, and there has been for a long time. The music has truned into something else other than Middle Eastern and the musicians themselves do not deny it. In fact, usually only westerners deny it is something new. Just like the American girls who are innovating, I have heard many of my young Arab students say the words, "I do my own thing". Regards, A'isha

03-08-2007, 06:15 PM	#31 (permalink)
Shanazel Moderator Join Date: Jul 2006 Location: Rocky Mountains USA Posts: 4,684	Thanks for the input, A'isha. Under great duress, I choreographed dances for my continuing students for the simple reason that they like to dance together, but I am never comfortable with it. They are all well aware of this and tease me about moving out of my comfort zone. Right now we are doing a veil dance, and if I can ever get them to quit stepping to the count like little soldiers, it will be pretty. The more I read and watch and learn, the more I realize how based in Egyptian style many of my teachers were, though they called their style American cabaret. Curious. It may be the reason I get so hot and bothered when I see some of the things that pass for belly dance, and why my dividing line of what is belly dance and what is not includes AmCab. Of course, that could just be ego, too. The music is there, the costuming is there, and reacting to the music with heart and body is there. Am Cab tends to mix music and styles with far greater abandon than is acceptable in purer forms, but that's largely because when many of us started dancing, we didn't have access to native dancers and just did the best we could with what we had, evolving as we went along. I remember the excitement in one of my early classes when the teacher got back from taking a workshop with a REAL middle eastern dancer and could show us what she learned. Hmm, talk about stream of conciousness. Hope that made a little sense. Shanazel

03-08-2007, 07:53 PM	#32 (permalink)
Aniseteph V.I.P. Join Date: Jul 2006 Location: Sussex, England Posts: 1,712	As a student I feel a bit uncomfortable with choreographies too. On the one hand it is a great way to make sure you repeat and repeat till you don't have to think about it (and can get round to dancing it instead of thinking). Also hearing the music over and over tunes the ear in so you can eventually realise why that move fits with that phrase. Short exercises just aren't enough repetition for me to get to that stage. But it's performing it, all in rows like in class... There's no interaction between the dancers, everyone smiles inanely or frowns with concentration, and I find it SOO difficult to put any feeling or expression into it. I don't want to look like the nutter overdoing it, so something is most definitely missing for me.

03-09-2007, 04:22 PM	#36 (permalink)
Shanazel Moderator Join Date: Jul 2006 Location: Rocky Mountains USA Posts: 4,684	Dear A'isha, That particular parade was too many years ago to be rained on now. I understand your point about AmCab, though I don't wholeheartedly embrace it. There's that word "authentic" again. Authentic Egyptian, Turkish, etc.? No. But one of my teachers was a first generation American and there was another who'd lived in Cairo until she was thirteen, but who learned to dance here. The atmosphere in their homes was very different from mine, very middle eastern and, to me, exotic. Their dance evolved differently than it would have had they stayed in the middle east, but to say it was not authentic? That would be presumptuous. I doubt very much that Turkish style has remained pure of any Egyptian influence over the years, or that Lebanese style has never adopted anything from the Turks. Are styles so influenced no longer authentic representations of their country of origin? How about my college friend from Iran who belly danced, but who ferociously insisted that she was NOT an Arab, that she was Persian? She is middle eastern, she belly dances, she is not Arab- is it still belly dance if she doesn't have an Arabic sensibility but is still middle eastern? Anoush, Farrah, and Mona's heritage was no less middle eastern than that of someone who never left Cairo. Same for middle eastern bands in America composed of people of middle eastern extraction. If in America middle eastern dance and music evolves into something still middle eastern but recognizably different from what evolved in Lebanon or Turkey, is the result no longer authentic? It's an interesting and debatable point. Thank you for another interesting and thought provoking episode. Shanazel

03-09-2007, 05:33 PM	#38 (permalink)
Shanazel Moderator Join Date: Jul 2006 Location: Rocky Mountains USA Posts: 4,684	Dear A'isha, I think you were talking to me and not Kharmine. I agree, there is Arab American music. There is also Arab American belly dance. And there is AmCab belly dance. The Arab American evolved from Authentic (that word again) middle eastern dance and music. Am Cab evolved from both, staying with the music, costuming, and emotional response to music as far as possible. No westerner not raised in the middle east is going to be able to express genuine middle eastern feeling in her dances, however well she mimics it. I don't think that means that a westerner can't learn to do a very creditable Turkish or Egyptian dance, but if true unadulterated middle eastern essence is necessary for a dance to be called belly dance, then none of us westerners are going to achieve it emotionally without long, perhaps life long, immersion in the middle east itself, and not just in the culture as brought to America by expatriate Arabs, who, as you say, become Americanized to one degree or another. To take it in its strictest form, only a born and bred middle eastern dancer who is immersed in her culture and truly personifies middle eastern essence can perform authentic belly dance. And when does that essence become too deluted with outside influences to be considered authentic? When she watches too many videos? Makes too many trips to Great Britain and developes as taste for punk rock? Incorporates wider arms into her dance because she took a few ballet lessons and decided if Samia could do it, so can she? Moves to Austin, Texas and ends up with a band composed of ex-pat Lebanese? One of the most interesting things about participating in this forum is discovering where and why people draw the line between what is belly dance and what is not. That in itself has been a remarkable education. Shanazel

03-09-2007, 07:14 PM	#40 (permalink)
Shanazel Moderator Join Date: Jul 2006 Location: Rocky Mountains USA Posts: 4,684	"A'isha writes:Belly dance has a specific ethnic meaning and is not in any way American!!" "A'isha writes: And so, because it would be difficult to become an authentic ethnic belly dancer, then we should just name anything that we do "belly dance"? I am not sure that sounds logical to me. It IS difficult to immerse oneself in a foreign culture, but not impossible." Dear A'isha, I didn't say anything that is done can be called belly dance, but I don't agree that the term is as exclusive as you suggest. What I have noticed about lines is that dancers tend to draw them so that they themselves are on the positive side of things . I am happy that you are accepted and admired by the ex-pat Arab commmunity- that is an honor and a boon to you as a dancer and a person, and a boon to us who correspond with and learn from you. But immersed? I think it is impossible to immerse oneself in a foreign culture when one does not live in the culture, does not speak the language fluently, and does not practice the day to day customs of the culture. One can become very knowledgable and sympathetic and accepted within a community of transplanted people, but I think that is different from being immersed in the original culture. I'm off to pick up my daughter, but will look forward to any further discourse on the subject. I am curious: which came first with you? The dance or your involvement with the culture? What I mean is, did you start dancing first, then find your way into the culture, or the other way around? I know that is a rather personal question, but if you are willing to answer it, thank you in advance. Shanazel