jenc

This is just to start everyone off again. I personally would include AmCab as Bellydance. Partly because there are not an inconsiderable number of people who consider themselves to dance, or have been considered by others to dance egyptian style, when they absolutely do not in my book. I won't name names at this juncture, though this might be fun later and I have seen them named in other threads.
There are many dancers who aim at egyptian and just don't get there. See my other post in dance styles. We don't have the equivalent of AmCab in the UK, or do we:? My first teacher advertised that she taught Egyptian dance, but when I saw an egyptian dancer, I was just blown away. I don't consider said teacher to be egyptian style, but she obviously does.
I have seen somewhere a quote from an Egyptian dancer who said somethig on the lines of The American dancers copied what they thought they saw and now we have new steps.
I have also heard that it is difficult to get real egyptian teaching in egypt as not only are the egyptians taking in more western influences, but they are teaching what they think westerners want to learn.
A'ishe said that egyptians can incorporate western influence without losing the egyptian esssence of the dance. This leads to a couple of further comments. If an egyptian dancer borrows a move from an AmCab dancer, is that move now bellydance.
Can I learn egyptian dance without transforming it into a western version?
If bellydance is to be defined as tightly as A'ishe does, who is to be the judge.
If someone tries passionately to copy egyptian style but just doesn't quite get it, are they trying to bellydance but only achieving AmCab. Does this make AmCab a lesser dance.
It is very interesting to me that we have had a long argument about whether the term bellydance can include AmCab without any attempt to look at what makes egyptian style, egyptian style.

Aisha Azar

Dear Jenc,
As long as people do not understand that the dance is something beyond just the movements, there will not be any an equitable answer to the problem. No one has ever intimated that American Cabaret or any other good fusion is a "lesser dance form"; only that it is not belly dance as defined by what the average westerner thinks they are seeing when they hear those words.
Regards,
A'isha

jenc

But of course Amcab is exactly what the average westerner thinks of as BD. If the average practitioner can't tell the difference - why do you think that the average westerner can tell the difference. Indeed the average westerner will think that AmCab is absolutely the real thing and not egyptian because what they expect is flashy tricks - and not the playful effortless of a real egyptian dance. You see comments on youtube slating the real thing.
But I did not want to say that either you or I would really wish to say that AmCab is inherently inferior. I only wished to point out where your position runs into difficulties.
You have not picked up my point. Many dancers can't tell the difference, or are earnestly aspiring to be the real thing but missing. Even among the dance community, opinions on who does or does not bdance egyptian style vary wildly. How come you think that the general public is more informed than the dancers!

Aisha Azar

Dear Jenc,
The average American my not be able to tell what kind of dance he/she is watching, but they BELIEVE that what they are seeing is from the Middle East if they are not told that it is not. That is why it is so important to clearly define what is being presented.
My position does not run into difficulties at all except with dancers who do not see that there is a difference. Its just a matter of defining clearly what is being done on stage. You missed MY point. I did not say the general public is more informed than dancers. Most dancers these days are beginning to understand how to look at different forms of the dance and identify. You get even newish dancers now saying that this or that dancer is pretty westernized, though she uses what they call "Egyptian" accents, etc.
And.... I have danced Egyptian for a long time now. The audience may not know what the difference is, but when they see the two styles side by side, they can tell there is something different about them.
Regards,
A'isha

Mara2

Again, I agree with you completely. I admire your courage in standing up for your beliefs as you do also. When someone doesn't understand what you're saying (which can happen often online) it can get ugly. :O

I would love to meet you! Do you ever get over to this area? There's a monthly Hafla in Mount Vernon I'm hoping to attend in March. It's held the first Saturday of each month. If not, I will come to your area to meet you. I'd love to learn and compare notes with you.

Warmest Regards,

Tegan

Amulya

I didn't have time to read all the 20 pages, so forgive me if I repeat something already said.

I like fusion styles, but there should be a limit somehow. Sometimes people fuse so much you can't even call it belly dance anymore. Or some things are just offensive or shocking. I saw a dance done with a saree once, it looked beautiful, the dancer was unwrapping the saree and using it as a veil. But to Hindu's that's offensive. Better not to go there. Or that scary video on youtube with the pierced wings, that's just to shock people and get attention. There was nothing artful or beautiful about that.

I think it's good to educate yourself first before using something.

__________________
Blog: What Were They Thinking?

Aisha Azar

Dear Tegan,
I have not been over to the coast for a dance event in some time, probably about 3 years. I used to teach workshops in Everett pretty often. If you do get over this way, please do let me know. I would love to meet you also! Oh, and if you are interested, my dance company's website is Barharat!! and we have several events posted there that will take place in the near future.
Regards,
A'isha

Aziyade

Hallo there!

I also include Am Cab as "bellydance" (Am Cab as we understood it before the Tribal revolution, and which we are now calling "American Classic Nightclub Bellydance" or "American Oriental" or something -- since apparently there is a NEW version of Am Cab that doesn't look like the stuff from the 70s.)

How's THAT for a mouthful!

I don't really consider AmCab a "fusion DANCE" although I do believe it's a fusion STYLE of several different Middle Eastern and Asian musical influences -- but all "belly dance."

But everyone has his/her own boundaries we put around the word "belly dance." Some are more exclusive, some more inclusive. I have my own criteria for what is and isn't "bellydance" but I can't really expect anyone else to honestly CARE about what I think But it's fun to talk about!

You know, I really don't know why we in the US have such problems identifying this. Jillina is often referred to as an Egyptian style dancer, and personally I just don't see it at all.

I THINK the confusion comes from the fact that we haven't seen that much Egyptian in this country for that long. While a few cities in the country have seen a lot of Egyptian and can recognize it, it's just not in every household in the Midwest, so out in the cornfields we're really not sure if it's Egyptian STYLE dancing, or just dancing to Egyptian music.

THAT is a really interesting question. I suppose it would depend on the influences UK dancers had.

In the US, as Shareen el Safy tells it, there was a period of about a decade where a lot of Egyptian immigrants were not issued green cards, and so the dance in the US didn't have a strong guiding influence from Egypt. Our dance evolved out of a "fusion" of Greek, Lebanese, Turkish, and Armenian music and dance, because that was what was being played in the ethnic nightclubs. We didn't have access to a lot of direct Egyptian influence, so our dance became a lot LESS Egyptian that it might have been, had the Egyptians been dancing in those same nightclubs.

If you folk had access to Egyptian dancers all through your discovery of and exploration of bellydance, then I would suspect your dance would look more Egyptian. If you ONLY had access to Turkish dancers, I would assume the look would more closely resemble Turkish.

You're the UK dancer-- what do you think?

Yep. Me too. I had the same experience. My pivotal turning point was seeing Sohair Zaki on video and thinking WTF? Why am I not dancing like THAT!

In its originating culture, ANY dance will borrow from other influences. Flamenco did/does this, bellydance did this (Taheyya KARIOCA's last name wasn't really Karioca). Egyptians didn't invent the electric guitar, but you find it in their orchestras now.

I asked about this same thing. I think now I understand that it's not about the "move" but about how it's used. Egyptians have been adding western elements to their music and dance since at least the Casino Opera era. And Arab musical scholars have been arguing about the "authenticity" of this kind of music probably just as long


Probably. Some say no, but most say probably. You can learn to dance "without an accent." The question to be asked is, is that important to YOU? Or can you be satisfied being "Oriental Enough."


I hedge my bets and say I do "Egyptian Flavored belly dance" unless I'm doing some kind of Reda choroegraphy. For Am Cab "purists" it has a vry specific movement vocabulary, the music is specific, and the routine itself has a structure. Most people call what you're talking about "Westernized Egyptian." Or you can use Egyptian TECHNIQUE without actually dancing in that relaxed Egyptian STYLE. I think the Technique and the Style are two different animals.


I don't think Am Cab implies a value judgement, because I think "Am Cab" is a direct response to the music that the dance grew up around, and as far as "authenticity" is concerned, for me that's what authenticity means. Is Am Cab an actual ethnic dance done by Egyptians? I don't think you could call it that, no. But does that mean it's somehow "lesser" or inferior because of that -- well, no I don't think so.

"Israeli" folk dance is a modern creation, based on some ethnic folk forms but based A LOT on very modern ideas and even modern music. But that doesn't mean Israeli isn't a REAL folk dance, and can't stand next to Bulgarian folk dance without being ashamed of itself.

Oh dear, we HAVE we HAVE we HAVE had that discussion MANY MANY times -- we just didn't get around to arguing about it in detail about it in THIS thread, cause that wasn't really the point of this thread originally.

belly_dancer

aziyade said:
I also include Am Cab as "bellydance" (Am Cab as we understood it before the Tribal revolution, and which we are now calling "American Classic Nightclub Bellydance" or "American Oriental" or something -- since apparently there is a NEW version of Am Cab that doesn't look like the stuff from the 70s.)

belly_d says:.... OMG what does NEW AmCab look like???? I thought I was a "vintage" am cab dancer (well that my dance is more "vintage"... not ME (yet!!))
& I was joking w/ another dancer who has her roots in Am Cab... & we decided that AmCab should be changed to "original fusion" (just to screw up everyone EVEN more! hehehehehe)... it COULD be debated that it is the only "TRUE" bellydance fusion... as it is fusing Mid East belly dance w/ Mid East belly dance (of differing regions)... so if you are fusing belly dance WITH belly dance... how come that does not = belly dance????

Shanazel

I'm ready to call it all con-fusion and be done with it.