Shahrahzad

Yep, the day that the common and constant misuse of the word "orientate" (originally meaning turning toward the east to pray) forced the dictionary people to update its meaning to be the same as "orient" (when they show you around your first day on the job) was a sad day for me! I'm such a word nerd.

But it happens...

Aisha Azar

Dear Stacy,
I think I have stated pretty clearly that I know there are other sides to this coin. In fact, I used to BE on the other side of it. I know its easier to think I am close-minded than to entertain the thought that I have very good reasons for my thinking, but just once, would any of you try to see it from my point of view instead of closing your own minds? I know that I have had the shoe on the other foot already and don't need to revisit my former position to remember how much easier it was for me.

Dear Aziyade,
And... the population for the most part considers belly dance to be a dance from the Middle East. It's easy to prove this. I challenge anyone who does not believe me to go out and ask 100 teen and up people in all age groups who are not involved with the dance and see how many of them give an answer that equates the dance with the Middle East ( or close to it). And yes, this does matter because it will shpow what the population thinks about the dance, and this is something that should matter to us as dancers.

The problem is that even those who are supposed to be educated do not know what the dance is. In fact, the general audience these days seems to know better than many dancers. For most people, I don't think that Shakira does equal belly dance. There are bunches of people out there who barely know who she is, or care. In the last 10 years I have had exactly 2 students who wanted to "dance like Shakira". They were in their first year of college.

Regards,
A'isha

Aziyade

Oh, I don't dispute that. They may have a rather vague understanding of what the Middle East actually is, but there's no denying that the GP DOES equate BD with ME.

Actually, on this issue I don't think you and I disagree on anything other than the importance of reclaiming the word/phrase "bellydance" to mean what we've defined it to mean here, and in this forum.


I'm astonished at that figure! Wow. I can only speak from my personal experience, but heck -- even our local folk dance and rec dance groups know (and like) Shakira, and most of the members are over 40. BUT, she's had concerts here a couple of times, so maybe that adds to her popularity locally. Our school got a lot of younger (20ish) students thanks to Shakira over the past couple of years.

Of course I can't imagine anybody not knowing "Hips Don't Lie." The video is all over the internet, it was nominated for a Grammy, won MTV music awards and she sang it at the World Cup last year! I think she sang it on American Idol, too, but I don't watch the show so I can't confirm.

Thinking of Shakira now, I think I will adopt a new personal motto:
"Baila en la calle de noche; Baila en la calle de dia!"

Aisha Azar

Dear Aziyade,
I think alot of people know who Shakira is, but for example, I have never heard the whole song "Hips don't lie" and I like Shakira. I have seen her on several shows and think she is one of the more talented of the girls out there today, actually.There are many more people besides me who barely know who she is and barely care. She just is not the center of everyone's attention is all.
Regards,
A'isha

Aziyade

WHAT???????????!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Get thee to Napster!!!
(You want me to send it to you? )

Seriously, it's a cute song.

Aisha Azar

Dear Aziyade,
I promise I will listen to the whole thing at napster or elsewhere. My favorite song by her is "Underneath your Clothes"... at least I think that is the name of it.
Regards,
A'isha

Aziyade

Oh look -we got moved

Kharmine

Well, sorry,folks, but this is gonna mean another looooong post - because how we can verify the things we claim to know and trust as factual is as important as what we claim to know.

Here goes:
--- The only reason I cannot check at least some of your references, Ai'sha, is that you have not given enough information or information that can actually be verified. Anecdotal evidence is helpful, but needs verifiable backup. I make no claims for the information I've cited other than it is what is, but at least it's in print, has been used by other reputable writers, and anyone else can look it up and do some checking with that info in hand.

If you have written nonfiction for publications then it is called journalism. If you research and write well enough for a discerning publication to print your work, then more power to you!

I, too, have written for many publications, including those with a Middle Eastern dance culture focus. I have a bachelor's in news-editorial journalism and was taught exhaustive research methods in journalism school which certainly did not include believing everything we read.

And had it drilled into me not to claim anything authoritative that I couldn't verify with more than one source, as reputable as possible. If I couldn't verify it but thought something should be mentioned as at least significant and helpful, I had to qualify it as "opinion" or "anecdotal" or something else rather than state it as verifiable, objective fact.

I've been doing this for about 30 years now (I don't count starting to write for newspapers when I was in junior high).

Sometimes reality and truth defy what we'd call common-sense or popular wisdom or that warm feeling in the tummy. That's why a researcher has to use the head as well as the heart (or common-sense) in searching out the truth. In a pinch (especially when claiming any kind of authentic knowledge) I'd trust objective, verifiable fact over a warm feeling in my tummy. At least I know it's not simply based on hearsay, personal bias toward my sources, and a personally preferred interpretation.

I am glad we can agree that Donna Carlton is a credible source for information about the 1893 Exposition and some of the related history. However, she does use the term "belly dance" in her book -- there are actually a few references but a "belly" anything term is not listed in her index. It's kind of a skimpy index, really.

I have a softbound copy of the book printed in 2002. Carlton quotes at least a dozen descriptions of the various dances from period writers who witnessed them at the fair. She says on page 29 ...It is known only that, besides the torture dancers, Ouled Nail dancers and hankerchief dancers also performed.

Then in succeeding pages, she talks about who the Ouled Nail were and their relationship to the ghawazi, the so-called "gypsy" tribe of Egypt, who were known for over 100 years to be popular, professional folk dancers. On page 45, ...after the turn of the century, Cairo's tourist nightclubs brought in more Westernized orchestras and began offering raks Sharki (Arabic for "Eastern dance"). This more elaborate and sophisticated form is what many people know as the "belly dance" of the present day. At least one ghaziyeh went over to raks Sharki, pursuing a career in Egyptian nightclubs.

So, Ai'sha, is this what you are claiming? That authentic "belly dance" or "raks sharki" was, basically, not invented until between 1900 and the 1920s when a variety of Middle Eastern dancers from different areas, cultures and training presented some mix of their dance traditions in Cairo nightclubs that catered to the foreign trade -- and that nothing else BEFORE or SINCE, except when it is like what those dancers presented on those stages, should be considered "real" belly dance today?

Please don't think I am hostile to your beliefs, A'isha. I'm just acting like a trained journalist trying to wade through to some verifiable facts that aren't simply anecdotes or personal feelings.

Because this is not about what I "want" to believe. And the only reason I may appear to be 'reticent" about accepting "the" answer from you is that based on what you've claimed I'm not yet convinced that it IS "the" answer.

And, no, I don't think you are lying. I haven't made up my mind whether you are correct about what little information you've given, but that doesn't mean I think you are lying.

As there is some disagreement as to how this dance is even spelled in English (raks sharki? rags sharqi? I've even seen it rax sharxi!) I'm not sure I can believe that ALL the Arabs you've ever met agree that Raqs Sharghi (there's another spelling!) is pronounced "belly dance" in English.

I've heard any spelling of raks sharki DEFINED as "Eastern dance," or "city dance" but "belly dance" is a vague and inaccurate Americanism (if Sol Bloom didn't invent it, there's never been any evidence that anyone else did, either) taken from the just-as-vague and inaccurate 'danse du ventre" that the French used to describe certain styles of dance they witnessed in the Middle East.

If Arabs today are using the term "belly dance" when talking in English about what is familiar to us as their 'raks sharki," I don't think it's anything but a matter of linguistic convenience. Because "belly dance" is NOT a literal translation of "raks sharki" -- and if you have evidence that it is, I'd like to show it to my nephew who has been studying Arabic for years.

What I currently believe is based on the verifiable research -- because as a conscientious journalist I can't accept only that which, so far, is strictly hearsay.

__________________
What if the hokey pokey is really what it's all about?

sstacy123

Well then you'll have to forgive me because it was NOT clear to me. But I believe I have clearly stated I know you have done your research so I don't know why you would assume that I do not entertain the thought that you know what you're talking about. I can see where you're coming from but I don't agree with the conclusion you make. Okay, as much as I'll hate not replying to your response this will be the end of this discussion for me. I'll still listen to anything you have to say as I do have respect for you and your knowledge but this is wearing me out! I need the engergy for the dance

Oh and as far as Shakira...she ROCKS! I went to her concert in Atlanta...actually is my favorite singer...based on what she says I actually would say she IS a bellydancer (no darts please)but I would NOT say what she does on stage is bellydancing nor is that her profession...but the way she moves WAS a small influence on my decision to learn bellydance. (clarify this doesn't mean trying to dance like her)Hips Don't Lie and La Tortura are great but Ojos Asi...I do love that...eh and also Ciega, Sordomuda is a recent favorite...

Stacy

Aziyade

ooh! Ojos Asi -- I love that song! But it's right next to something Alabina on my iPod and so I always think it's an Alabina song (cause you know they sound so much alike.....)