But It's Art!!!!! - Page 12

Aziyade · 03-15-2007, 01:28 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kharmine

Or does this become like the debates in Spain over what is authentic flamenco? With some people contending it can only be what they grew up with in their own street, in their particular neighborhood, in their region?

HA! I wish I had known about this when I went searching for "real" Flamenco!

About the only thing all the singers can agree on is that what you see in the big shows (largely for tourists) is crap. I love Spain.

sstacy123 · 03-15-2007, 02:13 PM

A'isha, I'm going on a quest for knowledge. Give me 30 years and I'll take you on!

You'll still be on the board then won't you?

Aisha Azar · 03-15-2007, 02:31 PM

Dear Stacy,
Not sure why you would want to "take me on" as you say, but in 30 years I will only be 84, so I will probably still be here....except more absent minded than ever... Now, what are we talkling about again??? Oh, yeah! It's pretty easy to prove or disprove my point by merely taking a small survey at a local place of some sort. Ask where belly dance comes from. The usual answers that I have gotten are Turkey, India, some version of people fake undulating and chinging imaginary finger cymbals and saying something similar to, "Yeah that Arabian nights thing", the occasional person who saw belly dance in its native countries and knows a little more about it, or some reference to Sinbad or Ali Baba. They never say, "Oh yeah, that jazz inspired dance from New York", or anything similar. Go to your local Arab hang-out or grocery or university library, store or wherever and ask the Arab customers, "How do you say 'Belly dance' in Arabic?". Let me know the answers. This is not the most scientific way to carry out a survey, but it is pretty accurate!! If we need scientific, I will be honored to lend you my Methods of Survey book from college. It's boring but very, very scientific. You have to wear a lab coat to use it, but there was no rule against dressing it up with a few sequins!
Regards,
A'isha

sstacy123 · 03-15-2007, 02:36 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by A'isha Azar

Dear Stacy,
Not sure why you would want to "take me on" as you say, but in 30 years I will only be 84, so I will probably still be here....except more absent minded than ever...

Why would I want to take you on? Because you're such a fierce debater and very unbending...

(not that I disagree with everything you say because I don't)

Aisha Azar · 03-15-2007, 02:51 PM

Dear Stacy,
I am always amazed that people see me as "unbending", but themselves, I guess, as quite willowy and supple, though in order to keep debating their own points, they must be as "unbending" as I am...??? I don't think I am debating with myself, here and my point is easy to stick to because it is true. Another member once said, somthing like "The fact that belly dance comes from the Middle East is not debatable". I agree.
Regards,
A'isha

sstacy123 · 03-15-2007, 03:23 PM

Well I guess I look at as what I am debating is what I call my beliefs...I would say for you, you would not call it your beliefs, you would call it facts.

Aisha Azar · 03-15-2007, 03:40 PM

Dear Stacy,
I would have to say that it sounds like you have made up your mind that I am not correct BEFORE you have done the research.
My facts are facts because I have actually DONE the research, asked the questions, noted the results. ( Not in a scientific manner, though this is entirely possible if I want to sit down and figure out what the percentage of error and all that other stuff might be. It does not seem necessary for such a straightforward thing.) I did not simply decide that my facts are correct, I asked both Arabs and the non-dance public what they think and got a conclusion in that way. It is not my "opinion" that this is what they think. It is what I have garnered from actually asking. I did not skew the question or offer my own input... I only asked. I think it would be nice if everyone who doubts my conclusion would honestly see for themselves what kinds of responses they get. It is not difficult to work it into a conversation. They should also be honest in realizing that whether or not the response smacks of Orientalism, the sentiment is still that the dance is Middle Eastern in origin, and when they see anything referred to as "belly dance", non-educated westerners usually THINK they are getting something from the Middle East. Of course if one is dead set against seeing this reality, then they will not see it.

I may have mentioned this before, but there was a time when it did not matter to me, either. Now, because of all the misinformation out there, because of some of the very far removed dance forms that are being called belly dance, it is time to get back to some realistic terminology. The easiest way to do that is to go by what the general public and yes, the natives themselves think the dance is called in English. It is possible to educate people to the names of the dance in the native languages only after we have gotten their attention. Raqs Sharghi means nothing to the average guy on the street, nor should it since he probably does not speak Arabic. Belly dance, on the other hand does.

....Why in heck are people so reticent to see this????....

Regards,
A'isha

sstacy123 · 03-15-2007, 03:56 PM

A'isha my comments on debating you were very general-not in regards to a specific topic. I was trying not to go there, but...

I am fully willing to accept your word that Arabs call it bellydance (and I will start looking for venues where I can be around Arabs-get to know them and I will ask them) But my thought is that if an Arab is in an English speaking country he is going to use the words the English speakers use...which IS bellydance...but why do English speakers use it? Most don't know any other word to use...And for English speakers it isn't just the dance they do "over there" bellydance could be any number of "styles." They would look at pirate bellydance and say that's bellydance...That's why bellydance is a generic term.

A'isha when I debate you I know I am talking with someone that HAS done her research, I realize that and that's why I said I want to debate you in 30 years...but just becaue you've done research doesn't mean there isn't another way of thinking about something or there isn't another avenue that you may have neglected to look into.

And you're right, Raqs Sharqi doesn't mean anything to the general public. That could change but there has to be a generic term because the public is not going to be educated to know the difference in styles.

Aziyade · 03-15-2007, 05:02 PM

I don't think we can ever get around the fact that to the general public:

Shakira = "Bellydancer"

This is where A'isha and I part ways -- I think the term "bellydance" is too much a part of the popular media to EVER come back to meaning what it means etymologically, or what the accurate translation is, or what any one of us on this forum would like it to mean.

Here's my opinion:

It doesn't matter that we know what "bellydance" is. It doesn't matter that any of us here know the TRUTH. The public will think what it's going to think, and our small community of dancers is NOT going to change that.

Here's my reasoning for my opinion:

1. No matter how many websites will tell you otherwise, the public STILL thinks Craig Shergold is a English cancer patient who wants you to send postcards to him.

2. No matter how many times Paypal sends you emails telling you they NEVER ask for your credit card information, the public STILL gets scammed and ripped off every day.

3. No matter how much evidence to the contrary, the public STILL thinks the assasination of (fill in the blank with your favorite political figure) was done by the government, that there's a crashed UFO parked in a hanger in Arizona, that aliens are kidnapping people right and left, that Johnathan Edwards sees dead people, that cold fusion works, and that wearing a copper bracelet will cure arthritis.

"Bellydance," in popular parlance, is what the population SAYS it is.

Just like "Country Music."

sstacy123 · 03-15-2007, 05:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Aziyade

"Bellydance," in popular parlance, is what the population SAYS it is.

Exactly!

03-15-2007, 02:31 PM	#113 (permalink)
Aisha Azar V.I.P. Join Date: Jul 2006 Location: Pacific Northwest USA Posts: 4,518	Art Dear Stacy, Not sure why you would want to "take me on" as you say, but in 30 years I will only be 84, so I will probably still be here....except more absent minded than ever... Now, what are we talkling about again??? Oh, yeah! It's pretty easy to prove or disprove my point by merely taking a small survey at a local place of some sort. Ask where belly dance comes from. The usual answers that I have gotten are Turkey, India, some version of people fake undulating and chinging imaginary finger cymbals and saying something similar to, "Yeah that Arabian nights thing", the occasional person who saw belly dance in its native countries and knows a little more about it, or some reference to Sinbad or Ali Baba. They never say, "Oh yeah, that jazz inspired dance from New York", or anything similar. Go to your local Arab hang-out or grocery or university library, store or wherever and ask the Arab customers, "How do you say 'Belly dance' in Arabic?". Let me know the answers. This is not the most scientific way to carry out a survey, but it is pretty accurate!! If we need scientific, I will be honored to lend you my Methods of Survey book from college. It's boring but very, very scientific. You have to wear a lab coat to use it, but there was no rule against dressing it up with a few sequins! Regards, A'isha

03-15-2007, 02:51 PM	#115 (permalink)
Aisha Azar V.I.P. Join Date: Jul 2006 Location: Pacific Northwest USA Posts: 4,518	Art Dear Stacy, I am always amazed that people see me as "unbending", but themselves, I guess, as quite willowy and supple, though in order to keep debating their own points, they must be as "unbending" as I am...??? I don't think I am debating with myself, here and my point is easy to stick to because it is true. Another member once said, somthing like "The fact that belly dance comes from the Middle East is not debatable". I agree. Regards, A'isha

03-15-2007, 03:40 PM	#117 (permalink)
Aisha Azar V.I.P. Join Date: Jul 2006 Location: Pacific Northwest USA Posts: 4,518	Art, etc. Dear Stacy, I would have to say that it sounds like you have made up your mind that I am not correct BEFORE you have done the research. My facts are facts because I have actually DONE the research, asked the questions, noted the results. ( Not in a scientific manner, though this is entirely possible if I want to sit down and figure out what the percentage of error and all that other stuff might be. It does not seem necessary for such a straightforward thing.) I did not simply decide that my facts are correct, I asked both Arabs and the non-dance public what they think and got a conclusion in that way. It is not my "opinion" that this is what they think. It is what I have garnered from actually asking. I did not skew the question or offer my own input... I only asked. I think it would be nice if everyone who doubts my conclusion would honestly see for themselves what kinds of responses they get. It is not difficult to work it into a conversation. They should also be honest in realizing that whether or not the response smacks of Orientalism, the sentiment is still that the dance is Middle Eastern in origin, and when they see anything referred to as "belly dance", non-educated westerners usually THINK they are getting something from the Middle East. Of course if one is dead set against seeing this reality, then they will not see it. I may have mentioned this before, but there was a time when it did not matter to me, either. Now, because of all the misinformation out there, because of some of the very far removed dance forms that are being called belly dance, it is time to get back to some realistic terminology. The easiest way to do that is to go by what the general public and yes, the natives themselves think the dance is called in English. It is possible to educate people to the names of the dance in the native languages only after we have gotten their attention. Raqs Sharghi means nothing to the average guy on the street, nor should it since he probably does not speak Arabic. Belly dance, on the other hand does. ....Why in heck are people so reticent to see this????.... Regards, A'isha

03-15-2007, 03:56 PM	#118 (permalink)
sstacy123 Member Join Date: Nov 2006 Location: Birmingham, Alabama, USA Posts: 488	A'isha my comments on debating you were very general-not in regards to a specific topic. I was trying not to go there, but... I am fully willing to accept your word that Arabs call it bellydance (and I will start looking for venues where I can be around Arabs-get to know them and I will ask them) But my thought is that if an Arab is in an English speaking country he is going to use the words the English speakers use...which IS bellydance...but why do English speakers use it? Most don't know any other word to use...And for English speakers it isn't just the dance they do "over there" bellydance could be any number of "styles." They would look at pirate bellydance and say that's bellydance...That's why bellydance is a generic term. A'isha when I debate you I know I am talking with someone that HAS done her research, I realize that and that's why I said I want to debate you in 30 years...but just becaue you've done research doesn't mean there isn't another way of thinking about something or there isn't another avenue that you may have neglected to look into. And you're right, Raqs Sharqi doesn't mean anything to the general public. That could change but there has to be a generic term because the public is not going to be educated to know the difference in styles. Last edited by sstacy123; 03-15-2007 at 04:18 PM.

03-15-2007, 02:13 PM	#112 (permalink)
sstacy123 Member Join Date: Nov 2006 Location: Birmingham, Alabama, USA Posts: 488	A'isha, I'm going on a quest for knowledge. Give me 30 years and I'll take you on! You'll still be on the board then won't you?

03-15-2007, 03:23 PM	#116 (permalink)
sstacy123 Member Join Date: Nov 2006 Location: Birmingham, Alabama, USA Posts: 488	Well I guess I look at as what I am debating is what I call my beliefs...I would say for you, you would not call it your beliefs, you would call it facts.

03-15-2007, 05:02 PM	#119 (permalink)
Aziyade V.I.P. Join Date: Jul 2006 Location: Cornfields of Evansville Indiana. Posts: 1,049	I don't think we can ever get around the fact that to the general public: Shakira = "Bellydancer" This is where A'isha and I part ways -- I think the term "bellydance" is too much a part of the popular media to EVER come back to meaning what it means etymologically, or what the accurate translation is, or what any one of us on this forum would like it to mean. Here's my opinion: It doesn't matter that we know what "bellydance" is. It doesn't matter that any of us here know the TRUTH. The public will think what it's going to think, and our small community of dancers is NOT going to change that. Here's my reasoning for my opinion: 1. No matter how many websites will tell you otherwise, the public STILL thinks Craig Shergold is a English cancer patient who wants you to send postcards to him. 2. No matter how many times Paypal sends you emails telling you they NEVER ask for your credit card information, the public STILL gets scammed and ripped off every day. 3. No matter how much evidence to the contrary, the public STILL thinks the assasination of (fill in the blank with your favorite political figure) was done by the government, that there's a crashed UFO parked in a hanger in Arizona, that aliens are kidnapping people right and left, that Johnathan Edwards sees dead people, that cold fusion works, and that wearing a copper bracelet will cure arthritis. "Bellydance," in popular parlance, is what the population SAYS it is. Just like "Country Music."