chryssanthi sahar

Dear Bin Rodi.

Thank you for the very interesting links I was not surprised by the answers of the Imam, since I know that fanatic Moslems think this way. But maybe you will be surprised to hear, that I know fanatic Christians, who would have given exactly the same advices For example the preacher of that fundamentalist protestant church, where I used to be a member, used almost the same arguments like the Imam of your links, to stop me from dancing (of course he didn't make it. The arguments rather convinced me to get really into the dancing ). And I knew Christians who believed that rock music is from devil and they obliged their children to destroy and throw away all of their rock Cd's. So in this case, it is not really the religion itself, but the fanaticism about the religion, which leads to such suppressive behaviour.
Me personally don't give a damn neither about what the Imam says about belly dancing, nor about what the priests and preachers say about belly dancing. If I am a poor sinner according to them, it's alright with me. I'd rather be a happy sinner than a frustrated saint

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Oriental dancer and instructor of Greek origin, living in Germany
www.chryssanthi.com

chryssanthi sahar

Dear Dipali.

I have dealt a bit with Indian dances (mainly with Bharat Natyam), so I happen to know about their spiritual nature. I also happen to know some very good Indian Bharat Natyam teachers, who are very spirituals persons, practising their spirituality through the dance. I wish sometimes, belly dance could also have such an obvious spirituality. But things are different here Maybe this is not bad though, because everybody can discover his own spiritual approach to this dance (I mean belly dance). I know somehow that this dance is my personal spiritual path, but since I have no Guru to teach me how to walk on it (different than in Bharat Natyam), I have to learn by myself to walk this road. I have realized some things about the nature of this dance, but there is a lot more, which I have to understand and haven't understood it yet. So I thought, maybe I could hear about the experiences and recognitions of other people. It's like trying to walk a road in the dark: you put one foot after the other and you hope, that there is no sheer in front of you and you are happy, if you hear a voice in the dark telling you "it's safe over here"

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Oriental dancer and instructor of Greek origin, living in Germany
www.chryssanthi.com

bin_rodi

Rebecca_

I honesty do think that bellydance is sacred, but I do not use it as a form or worship. Bellydance is sacred to me because it is the only pure form of expression I have ever found. If I could just tell you what I was thinking and feeling, I would never have to dance. If I'm listening to music and using the music as a lens to explore my inner workings through movement, yes, I would say that is sacred. On the other hand, if I am bouncing around to the latest amr diab song that might not be so sacred to me.

Bin rodi, the way I understand it fundamentalism should not represent islam as a whole. Fundamental islam of course is not going to tolerate women at all exposing themselves or being liberated. A large part of the world is islamic, and islam exists in plenty of places where women are not restricted by fundamentalism. Nonetheless, thank you for sharing your opinion.

Chryssanthi, I agree that any type of fundamentalist or extremist religion will have the same extremist rules that put a cap on self-expression. I heard an interesting theory: When people are not allowed to dance or listen to music and have many restrictions on their lives, they are much more likely to be very passionate(in an extremist way) about their religion since they are not allowed to be passionate about anything else.

Yasmine Bint Al Nubia

No Bin Rodi, She was not saying that Islam is tolerant of Belly dance. In fact I was going to reply to your post with a similar description. So as not to have any problems communicating and interpretating: What Chryssanthi (and I) believe is that there are Christian leaders who will give the same answers as the Muslim cleric. From my personal experience, I've attended Christian Churches where dancing,singing were considered forbidden, in Arabic the word is haram. These Christian leaders speak and act JUST like the Imam posted in your links. It doesn't make these leaders any smarter than those mullahs but JUST as intolerant and hateful. So it's important that you understand what her reply meant.
So Chryssanthi in reply to your qestion, I believe that all forms of dance has a spiritual connection to the creative forces in life. There are times when I hear music and I'm compelled to move(and not just belly dancing either). Also I feel a spritual connection when I see any dancer or singer, with emotional attachment to the music.
Yasmine

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www.visionsofthenile.com

Zorba

Oh boy - I leave town for a few days, and look what brews up!

I agree with much of what has been said in this thread already. Some semi-connected and semi-random thoughts:

If one accepts the idea that "My rights stop where yours begin", then within that context, the greatest possible evil is:

Interference with free will.

Hopefully without getting into too many semantics (which makes many discussions/arguments meaningless), it is my belief that mankind (or humankind if you prefer) can only further evolve spiritually by the total abandonment of rules based "Morality", and rather adopting a "thinking based" sense of "Ethics". Or to put it another way, rejecting absolutism and understanding the situational relativism of the universe.

I do not understand people who feel it necessary to submit themselves to self proclaimed "religious authorities" who do their thinking for them. I don't get it.

Like many in the Belly Dance community, I am a pagan; although not a Wiccan or similar. As such, and a polytheist, I generally take a dim view of monotheists whose belief systems tend towards the simplistic and the authoritarian. No thank you.

Someone in this thread mentioned the private nature of the individual's relationship with the divine. Nothing could be more true - My relationship with my Gods is no-one's business but my own. I seldom discuss it with anyone - I'd sooner discuss my sex life, my spirituality is that private to me. This is in direct conflict with many brands of Monotheists who seem to think it necessary to shout it from the rooftops and make sure everyone else is assimilated. Interference with free will again...

I've been watching our own, home grown "American Taliban" since I was old enough to recognize it as such. My revelation was in reading a Seventh Day Adventist publication called "Signs of the Times" in the mid 70's. There was an article in one issue decrying declining church attendance. The author concluded that it would be unfortunate if it became necessary to pass laws compelling church attendance.

WHAT. THE. ####!!!???

That was my wakeup call - I realized for the first time that people like this exist, and must be resisted at all costs. And they're growing in power and influence worldwide. And what gives them the right to determine what *I* believe? More interference with free will - the "dark side of the force" if you will - utter evil.

I could go on ad nauseum, but I've probably p*ssed everyone off enough for one turn...

But to bring it full circle - ANY artform is spiritual. And moving to music is VERY spiritual - so yes, Belly Dance is spiritual!

__________________
-Zorba
"The Veiled Male"
http://www.doubleveil.net
"There is nothing sadder than a veil, that is for sale."

Aniseteph

That's what it's all about.

Welcome back Zorba!

Tarik Sultan

You're not understanding what she's saying. what she is trying to poinbt out to you is that there are many christians who are just like those muslims in the links you posted.

In America we have a christian group called the Amish. In their religion it is forbidden to listen to any kind of music, or to dance or even watch t.v.

Many of them are so extreem that they don't have electricity or cars. To this day they still use horse carriages to get around. They live like people did 200 years ago. They won't even take pictures or let a t.v. camera record them.

I can tell you personally that my church tought that dancing was a sinb and that women who show their body in revealing clothes were going to hell, so how are these christians diffeent from fanatical muslims?

bin_rodi

Zumarrad

Now, I am no religious expert, but it seems very clear to me that the Imam in this case is decrying the celebration *because* the marriage is dodgy. As the questioner points out, the groom has expressed his intention not to work and to live off his in-laws - something he hasn't told them. So the mehndi and the dancer and what have you are not *of themselves* haram, but attending them would be because they are in celebration of a marriage that is clearly doomed to be very bad.

I notice also that the *one* Koranic quote the Imam gives in response to the questions these people posed is one that he *interprets* as referring to music and dance being bad *because* he believes they can lead one into doing things that are *actually* sinful, like adultery, by exciting the senses.

Anthony Shay (yes, him again) has written a good article called Belly Dancing and Jurisprudence, where he quotes the two references to actual dancing that are in the hadiths, and points out that imams have been arguing about whether or not the prophet's comments approved or disapproved of dancing for centuries. He also says categorically that if the Koran *did* explicitly prohibit dance and music, *there would be no dance and music* in Islamic communities, because there would be no room for debate and people would simply not do it. Same as they don't eat pork. If you are Muslim and you eat pork, you know damn well you are doing something haram.

A lot of imams, like a lot of Christian religious leaders, teach strongly against dancing and music because they are stimulating. Not because they are forbidden.