chryssanthi sahar

Dear Kiraze.
I disagree with this statement, even if you are right, when you tell, that tolerance depends on the person. But then again individuals are influenced by their cultural and religious background.
It is a fact, that some religions (basically all monotheistic religions) are less tolerant than others (at least as about dance and physical expression). This intolerance is even manifested in their "holy" scriptures. The fact that some people who belong to such religions are tolerant, doesn't make the religions themselves tolerant.

Kiraze

But who has written these holy scripts? People did! They did not appear from the clear sky (even though some believe they did)

But again, Cryssanthi you are probably correct as monotheistic religions are based on what is written on the book and if a holy book gives instructions of behavior and strange fables about the history they are considered to be the truth without questioning. Well needless to say that I do not believe in religions because of this (and this is a totally different thing than believing in God or any other natural force behind all the living despite the name or form) as there are horrible stories in each of these monotheistic books (and yes, i have read all of them just like I have read Kalevala, Gilgamesh, Niebelungenlied, Ilias and many other similar folk stories)

I am sorry if I offend someone by comparing "holy books" to folktales, but I do not see much difference. Besides the texts included within current Bible are selected quite late and that selection was made by known Catholic men (or even by one guy as I have also heard)... same probably goes with Torah and Koran and all those holy scripts by "religions of the book" are written during several years, decades, centuries just like any other big sagas but not all the sagas have reach the status of the religion - at least not anymore... (it would be kinda fun to believe in Kalevala however as there women were strong and men quite stupid...religion based on that book would have definately accepted belly dancing )

Aisha Azar

Dear Cryssanthi,
I LOVE the idea of "Free Zen Buddhism" and I thinl you should start your own branch of Buddhism and call it that. It's a wonderful concept!!
Yes, I believe that when Buddhists of all kinds came to the West, they saw an opportunity to support themselves here through their philopsphies in new and more financially progressive ways. They also probably saw that more women than men were open to expoloring those philosophies. I guess what I am trying to say with the nicest spin I can imagine, is that Buddhists are willing to exploit the female population as well as the average western television evangelist is. IT COULD be a spurt of spiritual growth, but somehow I am dubious.
However, don't Tibetans practice polygyny, where women as well as men might have more than one spouse??
Regards,
A'isha

Ariella

Is dance at all involved in the religion of buddhism? Not bellydance, but some sort of religious dance? Are religions that have dance integrated into them more tolerant of other types of dance? Off the top of my head I can think of the whirling dervishes of the sufi sect of islam. What do sufis think of bellydance?

When it comes to who creates intolerance, I think it is the people. Yes, people have these books to guide them, but it's people who over the years have copied them over and over in order to preserve them, it's people who edited these books while they were being copied. Additionally, it's the people that lead the religion that choose how to interpret these holy books. And it's the people of the religion that act based on how their religion is being run. So ultimately religion is not to blame for intolerance, it is people in my opinion.

Sara

Buddhism isn't actually a religion as such. Sidartha Guatama did not comment on whether or not there is a God. It is a set of philosophies which aims to help the individual progress along the Eightfold Path to Nirvana. There are many different area's of Buddhism each different.

Sidartha (the Buddha) very much believed in the middle way. He was born a prince and later left home as he had witnessed suffering and wanted to understand it and try and prevent it. Long story cut short- he found the middle way. No extremes.

The whole of Buddhism aims to cultivate wisdom, compassion and loving kindness. In relation to women, I think Buddhist male's are careful as Buddhist monks would see a woman as a distraction (and likewise for women) which is why they also have seperate monasteries. It's very complicated and everything in Buddhism relates to something else. So I can't fully explain it, but in Buddhism men and women are considered equal as far as I am aware...if not it would all be a bit hypocritical.

Kiraze

It is so much based on where do you come from and on your own life experience what followers of different religions or sects think about: within Islam sufis and alevis are thought to be more tolerant towards dance in all as they themselves practice rituals including music and dance. Hower of those Muslims I personally know the most tolerant have been maybe even surprisingly those who come from countryside of Turkey, Iraq and Iran and most of them absolutely love bellydance: most of them however would not dance for the male audiences but they still enjoy to watch (my experience is from the first generation of immigrants or refugees but I have noticed that attitudes are usually getting tougher after one generation).

Here in Singapore it is also interesting to observ different people of different backgrounds as her are so many "official religions": I should not generilize but in my eyes Indian audience (mostly Hindus but some of my best Indian friend are Muslims or Christians) do not seem to have any trouble in accepting any kind of dances, buddhists (and people with Chinese backgroung) here seem to me more hard and fast to condemn "inappropriate" behaviour like bellydance - then again Malays tend to be more religious (most of them are Muslims) but still they at lest feel to be very tolerant and warm towards anything including belly dance ... and most of the local westerns are expats sent here by their western companies so they tend to underestimate anything that is "too exotic" so in my eyes here the best reaction for dancing has come from Indians (Hindus, Muslim, Christian), Malays (Muslim) and those strange folks from other countries that come here just to search for something (and who are not "expats"). So if I would from my opinion towards religions just based on Singapore I would say that Muslims and Hindus are the most tolerant

I myself have very strong Christian background and that will be part of my own background always but to understand the differencies or similarities between different relihions and beliefs is much longer path: I myself would like to believe that "all the Gods" are just the same and all the religions are basically just the same and again I would blame people on intolerance not the religion or their Gods/Goddesses ...

belly_dancer

yes... the people...... the PEOPLE in CHARGE!!!!.... it is my feeling that most (if not all) of the "BIG" organized religions today started with "real" prophets, with great idea(l)s... but as time went on, these ideals were twisted to suit the peoples (IN CHARGE) needs.... as in:.... a way to control the masses...
remember, until very recently (in the scope of human history) most of the "masses" were illiterate, so relied on the word of their preist, king, etc.(controllers!), to tell the commoners what to do.... & of course this word "of God" turned into the "word" of whoever would benefit (get richer) off of controlling the people...
same thing happens in corporations..... start with a prophet (genius idea), & the original employees (apostles) are working for the true ideals of the company.... then the original guy dies (or the company is sold, merged, whatever)... & whoever takes over the company usually runs it as a strictly for profit (hehehe just noticed... prophet/profit!) deal, corners get cut, employees (the masses) get screwed, & you can't get through to the company (God) on the phone anymore!
so long story short, IMO I believe that religion, while it started out with noble intentions, has mostly turned out as a way to control the common person.... & our backgrounds/cultures etc.... allow us to follow along without thinking (just what those in charge want us to do..... NOT THINK for ourselves!!!)...
PLEASE realize, I do not mean to offend anybodys beliefs....
mine is......
I think we should all look inside ourselves (& nature) for God.... God is Life... and Life supports DANCE
(look on a molecular level.... all those atoms dancing around!... the natural patterns (such as spirals) occuring in the universe, etc.
PEACE!

belly_dancer

I have often (secretly... as I do not want to offend!) wondered what our world would be like if Christianity was based on the book "Alice in Wonderland" instead of the bible!!... just gives you something to think about.... you know!
again I think we should all seek our OWN truths.... I seek mine mostly in the wonders of nature (& the wonders of dance!).... but others truth may lie elsewhere....

Tarik Sultan

When all is said and done, I take very little stock in what religion says or doesn't say about dancing. In the real scheme of things, religion may say x,y,z, but on the ground, most people do what makes sense and works for their lives. There are very, very few people who follow their religions to the tee, even the most rabid fundamentalist. For example, Islam forbids certain foods and alchohol because they are damaging to the body. People will refrain from them, but then chain smoke tons of cigaretts with the excuse that it doesn't mention smoking in the Koran. Obviously they are not following the intent, not harming the body, but are paying lip service.

In terms of actual life, as I've pointed out before, public dancing women have always existed in Islamic societies, even when Sharia was the law of the land. The current straign of intollerance is a reaction to political, social and economic pressures that these societies are experiencing as a result of colonialism and current international policies and regeims in those countries.

In regards to the decline in dance in Egypt, even dancers will tell you that fundamentalism is only a small part of the decline. The biggest problems are economic and cultural/social. Economic in that the people who once patronised the 5 star hotels are no longer around. These were rich foriegners from Arab countries like the Gulf areas or the Lebanese who were in exile during the civil war. Now that the civil war is over, the Lebanese have returned to their homeland and taken their money with them. The older generation of Gulfies who supported the clubs are either kooling their heels back home, or have choosen new destinations to vacation in. The younger generations on the other hand don't want to go see dancers. They want to go to clubs to hear singers and dance around themselves. The majority of the Egyptian population could never afford to go to the big clubs even when the economy was much stronger. Those who can afford it, like the Gulfies of their generation, are more into Salsa, Techno and Hip-hop and the younger generation who are still connected to their culture, as I've said, can't afford it. Of course, the down turn in the economy and tourism don't exactly help turist based luxury pasttimes.

So before we spend so much time feeling down about what religion does or doesn't support us, lets understand that fact, but put it in the propper perspective in the scheme of things.

Dipali

[quote=belly_dancer;17066] I have often (secretly... as I do not want to offend!) wondered what our world would be like if Christianity was based on the book "Alice in Wonderland" instead of the bible!!... just gives you something to think about.... you know! /QUOTE]

It would be so much fun.

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