Aisha Azar

Dear Salome,
I think that in a very real way, the conversation has still centered around belly dance, in that it has discussed what religions forbid and what they accept. In discussing other areas of this issue, we are still pretty much talking about the main topic and supporting our views from a sort of more macrocosmic standpoint. The issue in religion, I think is never really just the dance. It is the idea, as St. Augustine would put it, of being "In the world but not of it.". In other words, he thought bodily pleasures would lead the people away from God, and this is a common theme in Islam as well as Christianity. (Judaism is another matter, I think.)
Regards,
A'isha

Sara

About Buddhism- I've bin doing it now for years in Re, so I know a bit.

There are some Buddhist's who do actually practise movement as a form of mediation, and I think dance could be included in that. Although the five extra monastic precepts do actually discourage singing and dancing.

Buddhism is about the middle way, and progressing on the path to Nirvana. The five Precepts are to refrain from:

Violence and killing- to cultivate compassion
stealing- cultivates generosity
False speech- truthfulness
Sexual misconduct- simplicity and contentment
intoxicants (such as TV, money, drugs)-clear mind

They are the precepts which Buddhists try to follow, and act as a guidleline. They can be broken depending on the circumstance and commitment levels.

As with other religions there are many different Buddhist traditions, such as Mahayana, Theravadin, Zen, Pure Land etc, and each varies. Generally I think that dancing and singing are accepted, but I'm trying to think of a example for or against...

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Salome

Hi Aisha,

I didn't feel that the thread was getting off topic as much as I felt it was starting to 'get personal'. There are no rules against that, long as it stays civil, so like I said in that post- it was just a suggestion.

Tarik Sultan

Well..I will continue discussing the topic, but I have nothing more to say to or about anyone who is unwilling to communicate with me in an itelligent, respectful exchange of ideas. I'm done wher that's concerned.

I promise to be good mommie

Tarik Sultan

I think Dipali was the one who mentioned the issue of how an individual or individuals interprit scriptures. This is why there is no clear cut position in any of the major monotheistic religions regarding music and dance.

For certain christian groups like the Amish, music and dancing are most definately forbidden. Other christian groups like some Pentacostal or Baptists think that all music and dancing is strictly forbidden, unless it is church music. In the church I went to, this was certainly the case. Based on the way they interpited certain scriptures from the New and Old Testament, secular music was not only forbidden, it was considered devil worship.
However, I know that there are other churches who believe that music is okay as long as the lyrics are not of a sexual nature or against church doctrine.

Based on historical and current cultural evidence the same can be sdaid about Islam. There are definately different schools of thought on this subject in Islam. I know Muslims that are 100% any type of music or dance except for the recitation of the Koran and songs sung at Eid. Ironically, they argue that these are not music because there are no instruments.

Othere muslim scholars contend that there is nothing wrong with music as long as it is not accompanied by drinking or sexually suggestive lyrics. This postion is explained in the book THE LAWFUL AND THE PROHIBITED IN ISLAM by Yusuf Al Qaradawi American Trust Publications pages 300 - 304.

It is also a well documented fact that the best classical music was composed in the courts of the Sultans and Caliphs at a time when the only law was Sharia law. Haroun Al Rashid was well know to have supported and rewarded the best musicians and singers. He even had many slave girls who were bought especially because of their talents as singers. Abysinian girls were especially prized at this time, for this reason.

In the same spirit, the most revered classical music, the Muwashahat, was composed in the courts of Muslim Spain, from wher it spread to North Africa and the rest of the arab world.

As for dance. The Ottoman sultan, Suliman the Magnificent, not only supported music, but also dancers. In his book A PICTORAL HISTORY OF TURKISH DANCE by Metin And, he mentioned that the Sultans all maintained a troup of male dancers, called Kochecks and a troup pf female dancers, called Chengis, who danced exclusively for the women of the palace. If you go to Topkapi Palace, you can still see the chamber for musicians that was located inside of the main throne room.

Prior to European colonization, when Sharia Law was the only law in Egypt, there were many ghawazee dancers who performed at weddings and moulids, especially the moulid at Tanta. Not only that, but Egypt was also famous for its legendary Awalim, who were educated women who could improvise poetic songs on the spot.

Without a doubt, there were some people who felt that music and female performers were totally haram, however, the evidence shows that there were others who considered it harmless as long as it was done under certain conditions. If all muslims agreed that music was wrong, then all these activities would have been banned outright. In all the history of the muslim world, this only happened in Afghanistan under the rule of the Taliban, who even forbade children from playing or flying kites.

Dipali

Not so sure about that claim! But in India there is stigma attached to women who go out in the night to work. But then there are police women , Nurses , doctors , army women and other professionals who have to work in the night. I am not really sure if people think they are prostitutes too ? Call centre jobs are city based employment for fresh college graduates who can speak English. And there are 245,100 people who work in BPO industry ,which is a tiny percentage of the Indian population.

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Dipali

Hello Forum

There is nothing said against women dancing or singing in the Hindu culture. It is a culture whose only words for strength and power are feminine -"Shakti'' means "power'' and "strength.'' All male power comes from the feminine. In fact there are plenty of gods and goddesses for dancing and singing and it is very common for an Indian girl to learn dancing or singing to find a better husband.!!! But there are parts of India where women are prohibited to participate in any kind of dance or any other form of art unless they doing pottery inside their houses. And it is usual to see women suffering or humiliated by men in many parts of India.
Hindu religion is based on two very basic ideas, truth and eternal order. Now this truth and eternal order has been changed altered and shaped many times by men like any other religion, It’s a power /insecurity thing for men, male power and religion , they control and make the rules to suit themselves, I don’t care what religion it is .
Regarding Belly Dancing and Hindu culture, I don’t think there will be much difference of opinion other than what they think about Bollywood dancing . As long as it is entertainment they are accepted.

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Yasmine Bint Al Nubia

Thanks Dipali for the clarification. I've taken the opportunity to read more about Bhuddisma and Hinduism, it's nice to keep the brain cells humming. Yasmine

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Tarik Sultan

This is exactly the dynamic I was alluding to earlier when I said there is a big difference between what a religion teaches and what people actually decide to do. The evidence that you've provided would imply that at one time women actually enjoyed a position of, if not total equality, then at least respect. The situation today though has definately changed. Women are still violently abused and explioted in India. There are still many instances of men burning their wives if they didn't get a satisfactory dowry. And many are still forced into child marriages. A good movie that showed this was THE BANDIT QUEEN which was based on a true story.

Long story short, she was married off to some old guy when she was a child and horribly sexually abused. When she ran away back to her home, she was shunned and then ended up being gang raped by the village elder's son. However, she joined a group of bandits and went back and killed all the guys who raped her, including the husband. In the end, she became such a legend she was aquited.

Greek history also shows the same sort of shift between women's independence and the loss of it. The Greek pantheon is full of many strong goddesses, Artemis, Hera, Aphrodite, Athena. In the Archaic period, there is evidence that they had a lot of independence, however, by the time its Golden Age came around, women were mere property. They had to stay in the house, and if the head of the house had company over, they were confined to one section of the house, out of sight and mind. On the few occasions when they did leave the house, they had to be totally veiled and escorted by a slave. Ironically, the only women who had education and could mingle and talk with the men were prostitutes called the hetare, (spelling?).

Personally, I think the real obstacles to female performers are mysoginy, (spelling?), and classism, not neccessarily religion.

Aisha Azar

Dear Tarik,
I think perhaps that there have been VERY few times in human prehistory and history when the sexes were considered equal.
The existence of goddesses in patriarchal cultures does not mean that human women were respected. It means, usually, that an ideal was set higher than it should have been for women to aspire to, and that these ideals were respected, not the human women who could not live up to them. Consider the "Virgin Mary" who was so pure and wonderful that she got to ascend into heaven without dying. Who among human women can live up to that imagery of perfection??? In actuality, men have the same problems, but then, somehow they have been blamed less. Remember that it is Eve who suffers the most for the sin of wanting to have all knowledge. Adam, I guess must have been, what, an innocent and slightly stupid guy who did not exactly know what he was doing and so does not have to suffer pain in childbirth or be afraid of snakes??? Please!!
Regards,
A'isha