National attitudes to bellydance and bellydancers

Aniseteph · 12-12-2006, 08:31 PM

What are the stereotypes and attitudes to bellydance and bellydancers in your country? What attitudes do you get from the public or your friends/family, and is it because it's bellydance you do? Would it be the same if you were a ballet dancer, for example?

This follows the Seven Veils thread and others on this forum. I get the impression that in the USA there is far more of a "we must educate the general public about what bellydance is (and isn't) about" ethos. Is it because bellydance got degraded by the burlesque/strip connotations in the US, so you have more of an uphill struggle to make it acceptable? In the UK we haven't had this - being a bellydancer might not have the social cachet of being a ballet dancer, but I don't think he/she is automatically assumed to be a stripper or a lap dancer.

So IMO anyone doing a "dance of the seven veils" in the UK would not be expected to have nothing on underneath (unless it was obviously in That Sort of venue). I've read that post-Mata Hari there was quite a vogue for it in respectable society circles. Is my impression that we have an easier time of it in the UK right, or is it just that I live a sheltered life and have friends who dare not disapprove? (Grrrrr - I'm so scary

). Is it a European/USA split? What about other countries?

Please share!

teela · 12-12-2006, 08:59 PM

I think alot of the attitude varies from place to place. Also it does have some connitations with Burlesque, side show dancers, and a remnent from the victorian era idea of respectibility. I also think some of the perceptions do arise from a lack of knowledge. Its nothing you can really put into a simple statement due to the fact than many of us, as dancers, are still educating ourselves on the dance, what it is and its assorted variations and interpretations. If we as dancers have questions, then it is to be expected that the public will have questions and misperceptions.

Moon · 12-12-2006, 10:37 PM

I think here in the Netherlands there are still quite a lot of people who think bellydance was originally done by harem girls to seduce the sultan. (When I was a kid I used to think that too, but I found out otherwise before I started bellydancing myself). I don't know if they also think bellydancers are strippers, but I guess most of the ignorant people here expect a woman in a 2-piece costume. Not for example a baladi dress or a male dancer. And of course some people (unfortunately also people who're doing bellydance themselves) think it's mostly about being sexy.
I am only speaking for myself now, don't know about other Dutch people, but before I started bellydancing and came across Shira's site, I had never heard of "the dance of the seven veils".
As for nasty remarks, I didn't get any myself. Most reactions are rather positive, or they just say "oh nice" and are not really interested. And for the rest, my dad thought a hip scarve belongs on the head

taheya · 12-12-2006, 10:59 PM

Hi anisteph Im not so sure that we are so different from the states regarding attitudes to bellydance. I feel that there is alot of ignorance around the dance in general and people on the whole raise eyebrows when i say im a dancer. Perpetuating the 'dance of the seven veils' would contribute to this ignorance and i do think that people in general in the uk have preconceived ideas about that.
I know i cant generalise from my own experiences but what i have read and heard about belly dance in the UK there is still lots of ignorance. I have a fear also that some teachers are not doing such a great job in educating their students either...but thats another story.

gwinity · 12-12-2006, 11:01 PM

I think Moon has pretty much summed it up for the Australian general public, too. Heck, until this year I didn't even realise there was a thriving 'underbelly' (bad pun, I know) of dancers in my city!

Most people, when I tell them I dance, ask about the exercise, stare blankly, or have the sexy-stripper-pole-dancer image in their heads. (I'm still trying to re-educate the latter!) But while the image of scantily-clad, sequinned girlies is prevalent, I think most people equate bellydance for the general public as a dancercize pasttime, not something to be taken seriously.

As for the dance of seven veils, I'd not heard much about it (if anything at all) until I started hearing from sister-dancers that it's a big "no-no"! We're uncouth and don't pay much attention to playwrights and the like in my neck of the woods!!! :lol

Aisha Azar · 12-13-2006, 12:21 AM

Dear Group,
I have not found that the general public in America has such a bad opinion of belly dance. I do find that often they are not educated about the dance, but then, how many people are educated about ballet, tap, Tai Chi, Yoga or any other movement experience in which they are not involved? Don't ask me anything about football because I know zilch. This is because it is not interesting to me, and I think in general the average American has no more than a passing interest in MIddle Eastern dance. Because we are so fanantic about it, sometimes we don't see it in persepctive.
I think the average American is not hung up on thinking about belly dance in either positive or negative terms... they simply don't think about it at all...kind of like me and football!
The negative image seems to me to be more in some of our own minds than in the minds of all but a few of the average general public.
Regards,
A'isha

Zorba · 12-13-2006, 01:24 AM

It depends on who you're with, what age they are, and where in the country (USA) you are.

I've encountered "some of" the Bible thumper mentality right here in Central California - one of the more free-er thinking areas of the country.

I was just having an email conversation with a dance sister whose BD class was denied by a local "Parks & Recreation" type entity (As I understand it) in a different state because of "Previous Protests". I told her "Been there, done that, got the T-shirt, going on Oprah. What that really means is 1 or 2 people out of a rather large group "protested", and as is usual in cases like these; got their way and ruined it for everyone else. The American Taliban mindset in action.

Another dance sister and I were, independently and unbeknownst to each other, considering donating a "Professional Belly Dance Performance" to a local charity auction that we both have contributed to in the past. My sister dancer was denied because of the "Sexual content". She was livid, as was I when I found out about it.

There are two ways of combating this kind of ignorance. You can hide behind semantics - call it "Middle eastern Dance" instead of "Belly Dance", not call a 7 veils dance a 7 veils dance, or whatever. Or you can GET IN THEIR FACE! I'll leave it as an exercise for the reader to figure out which way I lean...

Far, far worse than worrying about semantics; are those who promote sleaze under the Belly Dance umbrella. We all either saw, or heard about (ad infinitum) the "Kama-Sutra" show at Rakkasah 2006. In addition, there were other performances that were not exactly family fare either; but Kama-Sutra completely overwhelmed any negativity these may have otherwise received.

Unfortunately, sleaze spreads faster than a fire in an oil refinery - and it doesn't do any of us any good. I know of several dancers who are semi-local to me who have been "influenced" shall we say - whose costuming and dance choices are not the best. We need to decry this at every opportunity - indeed my instructors have had to show more than one dancer to the door at our local venue for this very reason - I wish more dancers/instructors/event organizers had their ethics!

Sorry, got me on a roll there, I'll shut up now...

Yasmine Bint Al Nubia · 12-13-2006, 02:30 AM

Well said Zorba!!!!

Here in my neck of woods Akron, Ohio, the Proud Suburb of West Virginia(it's a joke), the attitudes regarding Oriental Dance are pretty nonexistent,neither negative or positive. However dancers in our Notheast Ohio community are well recieved and participate in a variety of events. Many local rec centers and private dance schools feature "bellydance". With that being said, there are not a lot of perfoming venues except for the ones we create for ourselves.
Personally, I haven't experienced outright prejudice, not because of the dance but because of the type of person I am. But I still educate the public whenever I can.
Yasmine

chryssanthi sahar · 12-13-2006, 02:45 AM

In Germany where I live, belly dance is, generally spoken, in the mean while quite well accepted and it is considered to be an artistic dance by many people. Back in the 80ies it was different, the first belly dancers in Germany had to fight with prejudices, but there was a lady called Dietlinde Karkoutli who was very engaged about the matter and she did a great promotion job for the dance in the media (unfortunately she passed away around 10 years ago). On the other hand, similar to other countries, it depends which area you live in. The smaller the place, the more predujices you will find.
In Greece where I come from (and visit quite some times a year), things are a bit different. Belly dance is nothing new there, since we have our Greek Tsifteteli for longer time, but the problem is, that many Greeks don't understand the difference between Tsifteteli and artistic Oriental Dance (like the Egyptian Raqs Sharqi). Most Greeks think that they are experts on belly dance (the same like most Turks think too), but they cannot really differentiate. And one big problem is, that there are very many girls, who call themselves "professional belly dancers", just because they perform in bouzoukia clubs (and Arabian clubs which are very fashionable in Greece right now), but they actually dance only Tsifteteli (o.k. with some more movements than the average Greek). Those girls are young, good looking and sexy and rather dance to please the male audience, than to perform art. And since in Greece women are quite liberated and want also to have fun, there dance also more and more young good looking guys belly dance in the bouzoukia clubs, in order to please the female audience

. The situation is kind of problematic, because on one hand belly dance performances are very popular in Greece right now and belly dance is very present in the media, on the other hand, what you mostly see is bad quality belly dance (actually same problem like in Turkey), or better to say, no quality belly dance. But there are some of us who try to change this situation and promote the Art of Oriental Dance in Greece

Zorba · 12-13-2006, 04:00 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Yasmine Bint Al Nubia

Well said Zorba!!!!

Thanx Yasmine - but to the group: Please forgive me for getting a little "passionate" on the subject! Even I recognize there are varying degrees of "in your FACE!", and try to use the appropriate one!

12-12-2006, 08:31 PM	#1 (permalink)
Aniseteph V.I.P. Join Date: Jul 2006 Location: Sussex, England Posts: 1,712	National attitudes to bellydance and bellydancers What are the stereotypes and attitudes to bellydance and bellydancers in your country? What attitudes do you get from the public or your friends/family, and is it because it's bellydance you do? Would it be the same if you were a ballet dancer, for example? This follows the Seven Veils thread and others on this forum. I get the impression that in the USA there is far more of a "we must educate the general public about what bellydance is (and isn't) about" ethos. Is it because bellydance got degraded by the burlesque/strip connotations in the US, so you have more of an uphill struggle to make it acceptable? In the UK we haven't had this - being a bellydancer might not have the social cachet of being a ballet dancer, but I don't think he/she is automatically assumed to be a stripper or a lap dancer. So IMO anyone doing a "dance of the seven veils" in the UK would not be expected to have nothing on underneath (unless it was obviously in That Sort of venue). I've read that post-Mata Hari there was quite a vogue for it in respectable society circles. Is my impression that we have an easier time of it in the UK right, or is it just that I live a sheltered life and have friends who dare not disapprove? (Grrrrr - I'm so scary ). Is it a European/USA split? What about other countries? Please share!

12-12-2006, 10:37 PM	#3 (permalink)
Moon V.I.P. Join Date: Jul 2006 Location: the Netherlands Posts: 3,642	I think here in the Netherlands there are still quite a lot of people who think bellydance was originally done by harem girls to seduce the sultan. (When I was a kid I used to think that too, but I found out otherwise before I started bellydancing myself). I don't know if they also think bellydancers are strippers, but I guess most of the ignorant people here expect a woman in a 2-piece costume. Not for example a baladi dress or a male dancer. And of course some people (unfortunately also people who're doing bellydance themselves) think it's mostly about being sexy. I am only speaking for myself now, don't know about other Dutch people, but before I started bellydancing and came across Shira's site, I had never heard of "the dance of the seven veils". As for nasty remarks, I didn't get any myself. Most reactions are rather positive, or they just say "oh nice" and are not really interested. And for the rest, my dad thought a hip scarve belongs on the head Last edited by Moon; 12-12-2006 at 10:40 PM.

12-12-2006, 11:01 PM	#5 (permalink)
gwinity Member Join Date: Jul 2006 Location: Melbourne, Australia Posts: 357	I think Moon has pretty much summed it up for the Australian general public, too. Heck, until this year I didn't even realise there was a thriving 'underbelly' (bad pun, I know) of dancers in my city! Most people, when I tell them I dance, ask about the exercise, stare blankly, or have the sexy-stripper-pole-dancer image in their heads. (I'm still trying to re-educate the latter!) But while the image of scantily-clad, sequinned girlies is prevalent, I think most people equate bellydance for the general public as a dancercize pasttime, not something to be taken seriously. As for the dance of seven veils, I'd not heard much about it (if anything at all) until I started hearing from sister-dancers that it's a big "no-no"! We're uncouth and don't pay much attention to playwrights and the like in my neck of the woods!!! :lol Last edited by gwinity; 12-12-2006 at 11:05 PM.

12-13-2006, 12:21 AM	#6 (permalink)
Aisha Azar V.I.P. Join Date: Jul 2006 Location: Pacific Northwest USA Posts: 4,518	National attitudes etc. Dear Group, I have not found that the general public in America has such a bad opinion of belly dance. I do find that often they are not educated about the dance, but then, how many people are educated about ballet, tap, Tai Chi, Yoga or any other movement experience in which they are not involved? Don't ask me anything about football because I know zilch. This is because it is not interesting to me, and I think in general the average American has no more than a passing interest in MIddle Eastern dance. Because we are so fanantic about it, sometimes we don't see it in persepctive. I think the average American is not hung up on thinking about belly dance in either positive or negative terms... they simply don't think about it at all...kind of like me and football! The negative image seems to me to be more in some of our own minds than in the minds of all but a few of the average general public. Regards, A'isha

12-13-2006, 01:24 AM	#7 (permalink)
Zorba Moderator Join Date: Jul 2006 Posts: 862	It depends on who you're with, what age they are, and where in the country (USA) you are. I've encountered "some of" the Bible thumper mentality right here in Central California - one of the more free-er thinking areas of the country. I was just having an email conversation with a dance sister whose BD class was denied by a local "Parks & Recreation" type entity (As I understand it) in a different state because of "Previous Protests". I told her "Been there, done that, got the T-shirt, going on Oprah. What that really means is 1 or 2 people out of a rather large group "protested", and as is usual in cases like these; got their way and ruined it for everyone else. The American Taliban mindset in action. Another dance sister and I were, independently and unbeknownst to each other, considering donating a "Professional Belly Dance Performance" to a local charity auction that we both have contributed to in the past. My sister dancer was denied because of the "Sexual content". She was livid, as was I when I found out about it. There are two ways of combating this kind of ignorance. You can hide behind semantics - call it "Middle eastern Dance" instead of "Belly Dance", not call a 7 veils dance a 7 veils dance, or whatever. Or you can GET IN THEIR FACE! I'll leave it as an exercise for the reader to figure out which way I lean... Far, far worse than worrying about semantics; are those who promote sleaze under the Belly Dance umbrella. We all either saw, or heard about (ad infinitum) the "Kama-Sutra" show at Rakkasah 2006. In addition, there were other performances that were not exactly family fare either; but Kama-Sutra completely overwhelmed any negativity these may have otherwise received. Unfortunately, sleaze spreads faster than a fire in an oil refinery - and it doesn't do any of us any good. I know of several dancers who are semi-local to me who have been "influenced" shall we say - whose costuming and dance choices are not the best. We need to decry this at every opportunity - indeed my instructors have had to show more than one dancer to the door at our local venue for this very reason - I wish more dancers/instructors/event organizers had their ethics! Sorry, got me on a roll there, I'll shut up now... __________________ -Zorba "The Veiled Male" http://www.doubleveil.net "There is nothing sadder than a veil, that is for sale." Last edited by Zorba; 12-13-2006 at 01:32 AM.

12-12-2006, 08:59 PM	#2 (permalink)
teela Member Join Date: Nov 2006 Location: Alaska Posts: 300	I think alot of the attitude varies from place to place. Also it does have some connitations with Burlesque, side show dancers, and a remnent from the victorian era idea of respectibility. I also think some of the perceptions do arise from a lack of knowledge. Its nothing you can really put into a simple statement due to the fact than many of us, as dancers, are still educating ourselves on the dance, what it is and its assorted variations and interpretations. If we as dancers have questions, then it is to be expected that the public will have questions and misperceptions.

12-12-2006, 10:59 PM	#4 (permalink)
taheya Senior Member Join Date: Jul 2006 Location: uk Posts: 524	Hi anisteph Im not so sure that we are so different from the states regarding attitudes to bellydance. I feel that there is alot of ignorance around the dance in general and people on the whole raise eyebrows when i say im a dancer. Perpetuating the 'dance of the seven veils' would contribute to this ignorance and i do think that people in general in the uk have preconceived ideas about that. I know i cant generalise from my own experiences but what i have read and heard about belly dance in the UK there is still lots of ignorance. I have a fear also that some teachers are not doing such a great job in educating their students either...but thats another story.

12-13-2006, 02:30 AM	#8 (permalink)
Yasmine Bint Al Nubia V.I.P. Join Date: Jul 2006 Location: Akron, Ohio Posts: 1,139	Well said Zorba!!!! Here in my neck of woods Akron, Ohio, the Proud Suburb of West Virginia(it's a joke), the attitudes regarding Oriental Dance are pretty nonexistent,neither negative or positive. However dancers in our Notheast Ohio community are well recieved and participate in a variety of events. Many local rec centers and private dance schools feature "bellydance". With that being said, there are not a lot of perfoming venues except for the ones we create for ourselves. Personally, I haven't experienced outright prejudice, not because of the dance but because of the type of person I am. But I still educate the public whenever I can. Yasmine

12-13-2006, 02:45 AM	#9 (permalink)
chryssanthi sahar Moderator Join Date: Jul 2006 Location: Heidelberg, Germany Posts: 1,485	In Germany where I live, belly dance is, generally spoken, in the mean while quite well accepted and it is considered to be an artistic dance by many people. Back in the 80ies it was different, the first belly dancers in Germany had to fight with prejudices, but there was a lady called Dietlinde Karkoutli who was very engaged about the matter and she did a great promotion job for the dance in the media (unfortunately she passed away around 10 years ago). On the other hand, similar to other countries, it depends which area you live in. The smaller the place, the more predujices you will find. In Greece where I come from (and visit quite some times a year), things are a bit different. Belly dance is nothing new there, since we have our Greek Tsifteteli for longer time, but the problem is, that many Greeks don't understand the difference between Tsifteteli and artistic Oriental Dance (like the Egyptian Raqs Sharqi). Most Greeks think that they are experts on belly dance (the same like most Turks think too), but they cannot really differentiate. And one big problem is, that there are very many girls, who call themselves "professional belly dancers", just because they perform in bouzoukia clubs (and Arabian clubs which are very fashionable in Greece right now), but they actually dance only Tsifteteli (o.k. with some more movements than the average Greek). Those girls are young, good looking and sexy and rather dance to please the male audience, than to perform art. And since in Greece women are quite liberated and want also to have fun, there dance also more and more young good looking guys belly dance in the bouzoukia clubs, in order to please the female audience . The situation is kind of problematic, because on one hand belly dance performances are very popular in Greece right now and belly dance is very present in the media, on the other hand, what you mostly see is bad quality belly dance (actually same problem like in Turkey), or better to say, no quality belly dance. But there are some of us who try to change this situation and promote the Art of Oriental Dance in Greece __________________ Oriental dancer and instructor of Greek origin, living in Germany www.chryssanthi.com Last edited by chryssanthi sahar; 12-13-2006 at 02:47 AM.