National attitudes to bellydance and bellydancers - Page 7

chryssanthi sahar · 12-18-2006, 04:46 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zumarrad

For what it's worth, the woman who is currently the longest-standing belly dance teacher in my town works in high-end specialist scientific research, and I don't think it's been a problem.

Well, maybe it is not a problem in New Zealand and it is also not a problem here in Germany (I had a good dancer friend, who was actually a medical doctor and it was no problem for her to perform), but it may be a problem in the US. And even there, maybe it depents on the State.

chryssanthi sahar · 12-18-2006, 04:57 AM

As about the status of dancers in Egypt: it is not only in Egypt like this. It is all over the Muslim world and of course it has to do with the position of women in Muslim societies. In all societies where women are supposed to be inferior to men, women who do something in public have a bad reputation. It was not different also in our "western" societies until some decades ago. And the problem is not only connected to female artists, but also to male artists. Art can get appreciated by the people, if a society is rich enough to pay the artists in order to be entertained by them. So actually art and artists are only in advanced societies really respected. The poorer a society is, the less respected are the artists, because what they do is not necessary for survival (the only exception maybe are artists who act in religious context). Besides this, there is much folklore art in poorer societies, because acting artistic (especially singing, playing music, dancing), help the people forget about their problems, so what would they need professional artists for?

Silvinka · 12-18-2006, 01:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by chryssanthi sahar

...... So actually art and artists are only in advanced societies really respected. The poorer a society is, the less respected are the artists, because what they do is not necessary for survival (the only exception maybe are artists who act in religious context). Besides this, there is much folklore art in poorer societies, because acting artistic (especially singing, playing music, dancing), help the people forget about their problems, so what would they need professional artists for?

I agree on that one! For example during the communist regime, many artist were told what they and how should do their thing. I think most people know those communistic pictures: a woman in a field of barley with her hand raising. Everywhere in the sattelite-countries you found the exact same paintings on buildings and walls. But nobody had such paintings hanging in their livingroom, maybe the ultra-supah-dupah-communists

And those artist didn't get much money out of it, well if they were communist to the bone they did.
And there were also many restrictions about music, theatre and comedy. Although dance was a common thing, i dont think that bellydance would fit into the communist minds

I noticed that during this time people hang more to its own cultural background and identity then nowerdays. Meaning that because of the restrictions, more folklore and mythical stories came into the picture.

Maybe this is not a very good compairment and a bit off-topic and most of all NOT an addempt to discuss communism, but i hope you will get the general idea of what i'm saying. The religeous and political state of a country can suppress any art form.

Aisha Azar · 12-18-2006, 06:14 PM

Dear Bin Rodi,
Thank you for your contributions to the forum. I think that you do tell the story from one side only by the way. Once dancers become rich and famous, many people respect and love them. I have heard this from Egyptians themselves. They LOVE Fifi Abdou, who has never forgotten the people in her neighborhood where she was young. She always makes an Eid feast as well as being generous at other times. She also refuses to change her voice and it remains the rough voice of the Shaabi instead of becoming refined. Suheir Zaki is and was loved by the people because she danced beautifully and she was often asked to kiss the heads of children when she was dancing. There were and are others who are loved among the Egyptian people, according to my Egyptian friends.
Yes, the idea of belly dancing is looked down on by a LOT of people, but often individual belly dancers are adored. As you said, it is a confusing psychology.
Regards,
A'isha

Quote:

Originally Posted by bin_rodi

you are welcome yasmine, really belly dancers suffer of problems in west??
but i guess still they can walk in the street without somebody spit on them
you are welcome anyway

bin_rodi · 12-18-2006, 06:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by A'isha Azar

Dear Bin Rodi,
Thank you for your contributions to the forum. I think that you do tell the story from one side only by the way. Once dancers become rich and famous, many people respect and love them. I have heard this from Egyptians themselves. They LOVE Fifi Abdou, who has never forgotten the people in her neighborhood where she was young. She always makes an Eid feast as well as being generous at other times. She also refuses to change her voice and it remains the rough voice of the Shaabi instead of becoming refined. Suheir Zaki is and was loved by the people because she danced beautifully and she was often asked to kiss the heads of children when she was dancing. There were and are others who are loved among the Egyptian people, according to my Egyptian friends.
Yes, the idea of belly dancing is looked down on by a LOT of people, but often individual belly dancers are adored. As you said, it is a confusing psychology.
Regards,
A'isha

firstly you mentioned Suhair Zaki as an instance
if you red what i wrote well, you find me saying that belly dancers were a LITTLE BIT respected before 70's
suhair Zaki was performing in 60's and early 70's
but now according to the date we are 2006
which i also said they are not respected because the islamizing of everything now in my country

as you said may be people love fifi Abdou a lot but they don't respect her
she may have money, may have power, may have strong contacts with politicians and police leaders
but still the ordinary citizen in egypt look at her as they look to hooker
you know there i as an insulting word people use to insult each other here in egypt it's "ebn elrakasa" it's like for an instance "you son of b****"

why don't you ask all belly dancers now why they use nick names like Fifi, dina, hendiya etc......
why don't they use their full names???

why don't you research their relationships with relatives and family because of chooseing these career???

why belly dancing is banned in countries like Saudi Arabia???
i saw a girl here from Saudi Arabia called Majnoona ask her what happen if she belly danced in Saudi Arabia

Aisha Azar · 12-18-2006, 08:05 PM

Dear Bin Rodi,
Actually, Soheir Zaki continued to dance into the 1990s, and was loved by the people.
One can not love someone without respecting them. Love requires a certain amount of respect. Yes, there is the majority who think all dancers are sharmutas, but that does not make it the whole country. Many Egyptians love belly dancers, whether or not they would want their daughters to be one. You still find them at many weddings and other celebrations, as you must know if you are Egyptian.
I know that you are correct in that right now there are many Islamic conservative thinkers who are influencing the society and the politics of Egypt, and this has made it difficult in some ways for belly dancers there, especially Egyptian girls who might want to have dance as their career. However, I state once again that while many Egyptians might not like the idea of their daughter becoming a belly dncer, this does not mean they don't like belly dancers....only that it is politically correct to say you don't. Here in America, it is strippers people feel this way about. People claim they hate the stripper...yet there are strip joints everywhere and if people really hated them, there would be no jobs for them and they would disappear.
Re the name thing. I live in America and do not dance under my birth name or my married name. Many entertainers do not simply because it gives them and their families a degree of privacy. There might be a more social reason for Egyptian belly dancers not to use their names and you are correct in that part of it is to save the family embarrassment.
Sauid Arabia is not one of the countries where Raqs Sharghi is a native dance form. Saudi Arabia is a VERY different place than Egypt (My best friend is Saudi. Her husband is from Iskandria in Egypt. She is a rebel!! As you know, many Saudis would not think of marrying an Egyptian because they are often part of the servant class in Saudi. ) Actually, I know several of the Al Asaaf family and several of the Al Athel family, both related to the King and they did have belly dancers imported to dance at their weddings, along with having singers. For one thing, there is very little of any kind of public entertainment in Saudi Arabia, no movie theatres, for example. As for the Saudi girl, Majoonah, how does one take a girl with this name seriously?? When it comes to Saudi women dancing, I have seen video footage from private parties that would really surprise you.
Regards,
A'isha

Moon · 12-18-2006, 10:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by A'isha Azar

As for the Saudi girl, Majoonah, how does one take a girl with this name seriously??

Why, what does it mean?

Aisha Azar · 12-18-2006, 10:33 PM

Dear Moon,
I doubt that Majnoonah is the girl's name at all, because it means, like, "Crazy" in Arabic. I have very limited Arabic that hasw stuck in my head , but this is one of the words with which I am familiar. Since my best friend is a Saudi and I hang around with a lot of Arabs from different countires, I am usually able to get a translation for just about anything, thank goodness.
Regards,
A'isha

da Sage · 12-18-2006, 10:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Silvinka

And there were also many restrictions about music, theatre and comedy. Although dance was a common thing, i dont think that bellydance would fit into the communist minds

I noticed that during this time people hang more to its own cultural background and identity then nowerdays. Meaning that because of the restrictions, more folklore and mythical stories came into the picture.
<snip!>
The religeous and political state of a country can suppress any art form.

I think that the communist countries would sometimes support the historic dances of the region, as a way to co-opt the people's heritage. When they ran a dance troupe with state money, it was like saying communism is the art of the people, and vice versa.

bin_rodi · 12-18-2006, 10:57 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by A'isha Azar

Dear Bin Rodi,
Actually, Soheir Zaki continued to dance into the 1990s, and was loved by the people.
One can not love someone without respecting them. Love requires a certain amount of respect. Yes, there is the majority who think all dancers are sharmutas, but that does not make it the whole country. Many Egyptians love belly dancers, whether or not they would want their daughters to be one. You still find them at many weddings and other celebrations, as you must know if you are Egyptian.
I know that you are correct in that right now there are many Islamic conservative thinkers who are influencing the soceity and the politics of Egypt, and this has made it difficult in some ways for belly dancers there, especially Egyptian girls who might want to have dance as their career. However, I state once again that while many Egyptians might not like the idea of their daughter becoming a belly dncer, this does not mean they don;t like belly dancrs....only that it is politically correct to say you don;t. Here in America, it is strippers people feel this way about. People claim they hate the striper...yet there are strip joints everywhere and if people really hated them, there would be no jobs for them and they would disappear.
Te the name thing. I live in America and do not dance under my birth name or my married name. Many entertainers do not simply because it gives them and their families a degree of privacy. There might be a more social reason for Egyptian belly dancers not to use their names and you are correct in that part of it is to save the fanily embarrassment.
Sauid Arabi is not one of the countries where Raqs Sharghi is a native dance form. Saudi Arabia is a VERY different place than Egypt (My best friend is Saudi. Her husband is from Iskandria in Egypt. She is a rebel!! As you know, many Saudis would not think of marrying an Egyptian because they are often part of the servant class in Saudi. ) Actually, I know several of the Al Asaaf family and several of the Al Athel family, both related to the King and they did have belly dancers imported to dance at their weddings, along with having singers. For one thing, there is very little of any kind of public entertainment in Saudi Arabia, no movie theatres, for example. As for the Saudi girl, Majoonah, how does one take a girl with this name seriously?? When it comes to Saudi women dancing, I have seen video footage from private parties that would really surprise you.
Regards,
A'isha

why can't i see suhair Zaki in media after her 70's movies as long as you said she kept danceing till 90's??

is because Sauid Arabi is not one of the countries where Raqs Sharghi is a native dance means they should ban it there??? and punish savagly women who practice it???
Israel is not one of the countries where Raqs Sharghi is a native dance but despite they allow it and sponsor it
USA is not one of the countries where Raqs Sharghi is a native dance but despite they allow it and sponsor it

breifly the love point you said is just the schezophrinic part of muslim communities which you find people enjoy the performance and scorn the belly dancer as a hooker same time

it's ungreatful manner when you get the milk then you slay the cow

royal saudi family bellydancers same time they issue rules to deprive people from it

all what you said about dancing in Saudi arabia done in "underground" way,
it's illegal (according to that abnormal laws of that country) and may cause the death of people who perform it

12-18-2006, 04:57 AM	#62 (permalink)
chryssanthi sahar Moderator Join Date: Jul 2006 Location: Heidelberg, Germany Posts: 1,485	As about the status of dancers in Egypt: it is not only in Egypt like this. It is all over the Muslim world and of course it has to do with the position of women in Muslim societies. In all societies where women are supposed to be inferior to men, women who do something in public have a bad reputation. It was not different also in our "western" societies until some decades ago. And the problem is not only connected to female artists, but also to male artists. Art can get appreciated by the people, if a society is rich enough to pay the artists in order to be entertained by them. So actually art and artists are only in advanced societies really respected. The poorer a society is, the less respected are the artists, because what they do is not necessary for survival (the only exception maybe are artists who act in religious context). Besides this, there is much folklore art in poorer societies, because acting artistic (especially singing, playing music, dancing), help the people forget about their problems, so what would they need professional artists for? __________________ Oriental dancer and instructor of Greek origin, living in Germany www.chryssanthi.com

12-18-2006, 08:05 PM	#66 (permalink)
Aisha Azar V.I.P. Join Date: Jul 2006 Location: Pacific Northwest USA Posts: 4,518	Attitudes, etc. Dear Bin Rodi, Actually, Soheir Zaki continued to dance into the 1990s, and was loved by the people. One can not love someone without respecting them. Love requires a certain amount of respect. Yes, there is the majority who think all dancers are sharmutas, but that does not make it the whole country. Many Egyptians love belly dancers, whether or not they would want their daughters to be one. You still find them at many weddings and other celebrations, as you must know if you are Egyptian. I know that you are correct in that right now there are many Islamic conservative thinkers who are influencing the society and the politics of Egypt, and this has made it difficult in some ways for belly dancers there, especially Egyptian girls who might want to have dance as their career. However, I state once again that while many Egyptians might not like the idea of their daughter becoming a belly dncer, this does not mean they don't like belly dancers....only that it is politically correct to say you don't. Here in America, it is strippers people feel this way about. People claim they hate the stripper...yet there are strip joints everywhere and if people really hated them, there would be no jobs for them and they would disappear. Re the name thing. I live in America and do not dance under my birth name or my married name. Many entertainers do not simply because it gives them and their families a degree of privacy. There might be a more social reason for Egyptian belly dancers not to use their names and you are correct in that part of it is to save the family embarrassment. Sauid Arabia is not one of the countries where Raqs Sharghi is a native dance form. Saudi Arabia is a VERY different place than Egypt (My best friend is Saudi. Her husband is from Iskandria in Egypt. She is a rebel!! As you know, many Saudis would not think of marrying an Egyptian because they are often part of the servant class in Saudi. ) Actually, I know several of the Al Asaaf family and several of the Al Athel family, both related to the King and they did have belly dancers imported to dance at their weddings, along with having singers. For one thing, there is very little of any kind of public entertainment in Saudi Arabia, no movie theatres, for example. As for the Saudi girl, Majoonah, how does one take a girl with this name seriously?? When it comes to Saudi women dancing, I have seen video footage from private parties that would really surprise you. Regards, A'isha Last edited by Aisha Azar; 12-18-2006 at 10:36 PM. Reason: Thousands of typos

12-18-2006, 10:33 PM	#68 (permalink)
Aisha Azar V.I.P. Join Date: Jul 2006 Location: Pacific Northwest USA Posts: 4,518	Attitude Dear Moon, I doubt that Majnoonah is the girl's name at all, because it means, like, "Crazy" in Arabic. I have very limited Arabic that hasw stuck in my head , but this is one of the words with which I am familiar. Since my best friend is a Saudi and I hang around with a lot of Arabs from different countires, I am usually able to get a translation for just about anything, thank goodness. Regards, A'isha