Kharmine

Not everyone here has been involved in previous discussions of what many of you see as the "same, old topics." And even if they have, maybe a fresh or better-articulated opinion ought to have the courtesy of being "heard" without being jumped on or judged hastily.

Those of you folks who are even now rolling your eyes over what you think is yet another argument about you think is, and should be, done with -- just amuse yourself elsewhere for the moment, won't you?

As any cultural anthropologist can tell you, we humans are genetically hardwired to unconsciously look for whatever the optimum signs of health and fertility are built into us from our ancestral memories. It's in our genes, as it were.

That means that how we perceive and assess the appearance of others is not simply based on our upbringing, media images, and other environmental factors. We are NOT, entirely, that shallow, or just victims of our modern culture.

Some of those signs encouraged by genetic AND cultural memory are things like proportion and symmetry in weight and bone structure. Consciously or not, we approve of "balance." It's a sign of health. Visual images of what we perceive as ill health makes us uncomfortable. They are meant to. That's what we're wired to feel.

Someone in a costume that makes his/her body look way out of proportion, out of balance, the opposite of what we perceive as "healthy" is presenting a visual message that may be so strong to us that it is a distraction from the performance itself.

When we say a skeletally thin dancer in a skimpy costume makes us uncomfortable because we can see her ribs, or that her extremely thin and very bare arms make some of her movements look spidery -- those are reasonable comments, so long as they are not motivated by spite.

They are comments as reasonable as when we say a dancer who has squeezed an ample body into a too-small costume looks as if she is about to burst out of it or that it appears she's trying too hard to look 'sexy."

And we are, after all, talking about "performance," entertainment submitted for approval to an audience. If something about a dancer's appearance is so startling to an audience that it detracts from the performance itself, then it is a legitimate topic of discussion when we're talking about the quality of the performance.

This does NOT mean we should get into snide asides about the intelligence or moral fiber of the dancer. Nor does it mean that we have to get mean -- "She looked pleased with herself" may not be diplomatic, but it really is perfectly OK to say "She didn't appear to realize how uncomfortable the audience was with her appearance."

When we are silent about such an essential element of a dancer's performance as her appearance, we are not doing that dancer any favors. If she is at all serious about the quality of her public performance, she needs to wear a costume that downplays the negatives, accentuates her positives and helps her performance to shine.

Gabi

Awww Geez - I don't wanna quote all that.

But more of my opinion

As a medical physical fitness/wellness specialist *cough cough* - just establishing my credentials here .....

Extreme fat is as distracting as super visible bones. Extreme fat is as much a sign of infertility as ultra thin; each extreme often has problems and each extreme often has no problems at all. But how many kids you might potentially pop out isn't really the point.

A dancers appearance is always going to have a part of how they are viewed.

As to which conversations are legitimate or something an individual is tired of - that's up for grabs too.

Any of us who venture an opinion on a message are subject to having others give their opinions about that so let's just not get on a high horse and ask other opinions to appease, howz that ???

Suheir

My opinion on the Fat/Thin debate: Dance has aesthetics, like any other art form. To me, a dancer whose collarbone, ribs and shinbones are distracting me is just as aesthetically displeasing as one whose rolls of fat are obscuring any abdominal movements - they both detract from my enjoyment of watching a performer. These are two extremes.

Kharmine

Well. golly, Gabi, I didn't think I had mounted any horse, high or sober.

I was asking for more civility, and a little less here-we-go-again type attitude. And I think I explained why pretty darn adequately.

Whatever your credentials in another area may be, I was speaking from the viewpoint of cultural anthropology about why it was we humans tended to favor certain signs of physical appearance. And why we tended to be uncomfortable with other signs that indicate ill health to us.

Cultural anthropology is a particular interest of mine, and while I don't claim to be an expert I know enough to give you as many solid expert references as you may require.

Yes, it is a given that, in general, humans are uncomfortable with BOTH extremes of physical appearance, thinness or fatness.

I am saying that's just one of those things of which we can't simply blame personal "bias" or cultural prejudice or even just good ol' spite by pointing this out -- as seems to be the accusation that lets fly if anyone dare venture an opinion about a dancer's extremity of appearance, no matter how carefully stated.

I never said audience members are literally looking for an indication that the dancer was fertile. If anyone thinks that, I invite him or her to go back and read what I originally wrote with as little prejudice as possible.

But that kind of misunderstanding proves that I am wasting my time asking for reason when, clearly, emotion is running stronger.

And as I hate wasting my time -- I'll simply join Zorba, fold up my tent and move off this thread. Salaam.

Gabi

Personally I adore horses high or not

Anyway - it's probably just not right to keep on this topic right here but it's kind of hard not to comment when the inevitable weight and what's preferable thing comes up.

When the question is asked about national attitudes, I suppose it IS inevitable but there is a difference between mentioning what that national preference seem to be and making statements that are, let's say, debatable and then expect no one to respond.

I think attitudes towards skinny dancers (and people in general) are much harsher these days in the US than those that tend towards fat. And this with obesity being more and more of a problem. People who are perfectly normal weight by any healthy standard are being trounced as skinny and anorexic, in belly dancing in particular it is almost expected to be at least a bit on the chubby side and comments of "give her a sandwich" abound.

Of course, those perceived to be beautiful will always have an advantage and those outside the range will indeed sometimes have to be even better to get equal interest. This applies everywhere as people just like to look at beautiful people. It's something that everyone has to deal with and it's a waste of time to focus on the unfairness of it.

Moon

Fortunately, "beautiful" is a matter of taste. There's hope for all of us. "Healthy" or not!

Now I hope this thread will go back to its original topic.

Yasmine Bint Al Nubia

Whew it's getting hot in here!
Yasmine

Aisha Azar

Dear Group,
Kharmine has a point in that if a topic has once been discussed, that does not mean that it can not be re-opened. I have noticed a trend several times, iof dancers getting a bit nitsy about a topic re-opening because they, personally do not want to discuss it. Kharmine is correct in pointing out that there are new people on the forum all the time and that the topic is not new to them. We, at any time have the right not to particiapte in any part of the forum. (Note, for example, that I did not get into any of the recent BDSS stuff, though it was VERY tempting... I just quit reading it so as not to say what I really think of "Bellynesian", or rehash the debate, speaking of national attitudes.)
To Kharmine: I also feel that dancers must look at the dance from a very broad number of subjects, including ethnic sociology and cultural anthropology, history, religion, etc. I think that then, we begin to understand the dance better from the "national attitudes" of its originators.
Regards,
A'isha

Moon

It's not that I don't want to discuss certain things, it's that new members have a lot of opertunities to find the threads where the subjects they want to discuss are discussed, and otherwise they are free to make new threads. But I like it better when threads stay a bit more within topic when there is already another thread where the topic is discussed (and I don't mind when they keep on discussing for centuries, I'll be happy to join the discussions and if not I just don't post there) instead of starting over the same discussion in a thread that is about another topic.

Aniseteph

Talk about going off thread - I turn my back for a few hours and look what happens! Salome will have us thrown into the Sauna, unless everyone has walked out already.

The reason I started this thread (may be repeating myself here, but c'est la vie) was I keep picking up on people's feelings that certain ways of dancing, fusions, lack of "authenticity" etc. are bad for belly dance inasmuch as they bring it into disrepute, tarnish its image, or degrade it in some way. What I was interested in was what this Good/Bad Reputation Of Bellydance actually was in different places.

I'm increasingly aware that my experience of the world of bellydance is very different to other people's; it's that blind-people-describing-the-elephant thing again. At my end of the elephant, in a relatively affluent part of a fairly liberal country, I don't see anyones individual style or interpretation being likely to degrade bellydance or bellydancers. You can even go to pole dancing classes here and it's no big deal - people really aren't that bothered. No one is going to put a stop to dance events cos they got some strange idea about what bellydance is about - they'd just get laughed at.

But at another part of the elephant there might be more at stake - perhaps a misjudged performance COULD tarnish the reputation of the dance and get events stopped, classes barred from venues etc. I don't know, and was wondering if it was a national thing, or just a matter of which little pond we each happen to be swimming in.

Right, got a pair of harem pants to work on.