chryssanthi sahar

As about the figure item: I think that in the international belly dance community there are no norms for that. If a dancer is good, it doesn't matter what kind of figure she/he has. For the average audience though, it depends on the country. Since I live, so to say, in two countries, I can tell differences. In Germany the audience is rather tolerant. They don't expect belly dancers to look like models, most of the people who like to watch belly dance even prefer curvy dancers over slim dancers. In Greece though, the average audience expects a belly dancer to be very slim and very young (especially the bouzoukia club audience). But also there things are changing slowly (fortunately).

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Oriental dancer and instructor of Greek origin, living in Germany
www.chryssanthi.com

Kiraze

After observing how people react to dancing in Finland, Turkey and now Singapore there are both similarities and differencies. In all these countries general audience thinks at first that dance is entertainment and most people do not connect it to stripping or prostitution etc - naturally some do e.g. in Turkey I think in bigger cities there is more negative attitude - however not too many consider dance as an art form either so dance is just dance.

Being any kind of entertainer is not considered any dream job in any of these countries - in stiff-necked Protestant Finland historically any fun has been a sin so it is not very dignified to be a dancer (but it is perfectly fine to be a dance teacher) and as dancing has not been very visible part of every day life any kind of new dance style has been approved as an exotic hobby: people are curious but general audience is not too interested in cultural background of the dances they jsut like to enjoy beautiful show... at the same time local dance scene has worked hard to enhance the image of belly dance and as there in fact has not even been very negative image this has also worked against the dance as many consider belly dance nowadays to be boring artsy stuff done to the weird music

In Turkey dancing is part and parcel of any family celebration or any social gathering so most of the people know at least some folk dances and they like to watch belly dancing and to try out some ideas they have seen: as all entertainers dancers are however seen as loose women especially on more religious countryside but still secretly when women gather some ladies are happy to demonstrate some moves they have seen Asena, Didem, Tanyeli etc. do on TV (and older folks even in some remote village can remember names of the big stars like Nesrin Topkapi) - naturally on western side of the country belly dance is seen much more and on touristic hotspots dancing is widely accepted as a good way to raise foreigner´s interest towards Turkish culture in all

As Singapore is a new spot on belly dance map here is not much historical background for "western dances" like belly dance - it is a current fad and here seems to be quite open minded attitude to this and combining belly dance to anything from Bollywood to flamenco or pole dancing or even stripping does not seem to be a problem: almost the contrary as anti-sexual politics of Singapore (here e.g. all porn magazines are banned and even red light district is not marked on maps even though it does exist ) has somehow created a vacuum, where any kind of dancing where women can feel sensual has their place and without much cultural education (I have noticed that most even more experienced dancers know almost nothing about the background of dance, different styles etc) dancing is just taught to be fun mishmash. Of course there are serious dancers who know their art and they are working hard to give correct information to their student and audiences but as an outside observer I find dance scene here a bit confusing

Dipali

Hello forum,

I have met many people who think Belly Dancing is some sort of excercise to loose the extra killos and I have not met anybody in Australia who has a negative thought about the dance.

What do you mean Zorba? I have no problem with Big Bellydancers and i dont have any problem with small framed belly dancers either.

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Australian Belly dance store - Belly Dance Costumes, Bollywood & Tribal outfits.

Zorba

I don't have problems with small FRAMED Belly Dancers either. Twas not to which I was referring. I'm (trying to) talk about women (and a few men), dancers or no, who you can count every rib in their ribcage. Wasn't there a thread here recently about the fashion industry and their insistence on anorexic models?

That's what I really meant. No problems here with a small frame - I just don't think I should be able to SEE the frame - small or not! One of my instructors is very tiny - I have to be careful to cover my mouth if I sneeze, otherwise I'd blow her across the room! But she's "weight appropriate" (read: not boulemic/anorexic) for her size.

__________________
-Zorba
"The Veiled Male"
http://www.doubleveil.net
"There is nothing sadder than a veil, that is for sale."

Moon

Oh please, not the same discussion about thin people again...
People can be skinny by nature, not all skinny people are boulimic/anorexic! And those skinny people can be just as insecure about their bodies as overweighted people can be, and they are just as harmed by remarks as "emaciated, boulemic Nazi death camp survivor look" as overweighted people are when you make nasty remarks about their bodies. Please, don't start this over again, this thread is about national attitudes against bellydance(rs), not about fashion industry and current beauty ideals.
For me, it's the quality of dance that matters, not the looks of the dancers and skinny dancers as well as overweighted dancers have as much right to perform as "normal-sized" dancers.

Maria_Aya

My dear Chryssanthi covered Greece 99 %
I would like to add some things

The so boring and non artistic choice of music in clubs and restaurants.
Hakim, and Hakim and Hakim, just for a change BDSS cd's.

Its from a luck of knowledge partly but mainly its what the owners think people will like, so its a loop

Also you will never believe the money that are payed for costumes !!!! and nails, and hair lol

Aisha Azar

Dear Zorba,
I notice that belly dancers themselves are (for the most part) more accepting of dancers of all sizes than is the general public. In a dancer audience, and with the Arabs, now that I am pretty chubby, I still have little trouble being recognized as a dancer of quality. But, among the uneducated public, I have to prove myself, where as one of my lithe and lovely and young beginner students gets immediate positive response. (BTW, I think you have a little prejudice there against thin dancers, many of whom are just wonderful.) It is what Americans are trained to think of as beautiful and I do not hold it against them. I only wish they could see things more clearly. The untrained eye views the dancer differently than a trained dancer does.
Regards,
A'isha

Postscript: I think that in some countries, it is more acceptable to be plump than it is here in the States, as Chryssanthi and some others have pointed out.

Zorba

Now I'm getting a bit irritated - truth to tell.

I *thought* I was speaking in the Queen's English. I guess I'm not, but I don't know how to clarify any farther, but I'll try one last time:

I have nothing "against" skinny dancers - NOT AT ALL!!!

I don't even have anything against anorexic dancers - NOT AT ALL - I just feel sorry for them. If I can count every rib and see every detail of the clavicle, the poor gal has some problems. References to "current fashion trends" was NOT an attempt to hijack the thread, it was an attempt to clarify myself from the LAST round of criticisms.

Jeez - people think Bhuz is catty?

I'm done with this thread, whether or not anyone understands my ravings.

Yea, I feel better...

__________________
-Zorba
"The Veiled Male"
http://www.doubleveil.net
"There is nothing sadder than a veil, that is for sale."

sstacy123

Living in Alabama which is known for being more conservative, Bible Belt, etc... so far I haven't had any negative response to my dancing, although I haven't been doing it too long. I have had a lot of people comment on it being good exercise though or wanting a demonstration. I am a bit curious the reaction I would get if I went to church and spoke of it...I'm not really sure. I don't feel like it would be negative, but I'm just not sure.

Oh, one more note, there was an article about my instructor which mentioned in early years some religious groups protested her teaching at at the university but they visited her class and some even joined.

Gabi

Ditto - been there, done that, and I'm done with it. Well maybe

tried to give you rep for that but 'puter says must spread it around a bit more first

OK - perceptions around my neck of the woods.

The general public doesn't have any negative associations about BD in all it's forms and is actually totally unaware of the more recents forms of it.

The BD community here seems to be supportive of all forms and tries to incorporate and provide venues that include representatives of all forms and the differing groups do seem to be very supportive within themselves.

That's not to say there aren't individuals and groups who are asshats who denigrate each other - there are and it hits both ways.

Dance is a performing art and if there is no one to watch and support the dance dies, for that reason if no other, I personally think it's important to have respect and support for all forms of BD, including Tribal and Fusion, etc. One interest often leads to a more all encompassing interest and that benefits everyone.