National attitudes to bellydance and bellydancers - Page 2

prince ali baba · 12-13-2006, 06:10 AM

Reading these posts reminds me of something I heard after folk dance class one night. I went with the teachers and a few other members of our group to Marie Calendar's Restaurant like we did back in the late 90s. I was telling one of the newbies I was interested in learning how to belly dance and dance with veils and such. I brought up the name Arturo who used to belly dance somewhere in Southern California. This newbie told me how Arturo is excellent. He then went on to say how some male belly dancers he's seen,not Arturo, will do an x rated move just to get women to tip them.
He said that some male belly dancers will take off there vest to get tips from women. I was shocked to hear this since I thought that only some immature girls would do something like this. Anyway after I went to YouTube.com I started watching a video of a male belly dancer. It looked like he was taking off his vest to show more of his shirtless body. However what he was doing was just opening the vest up so the audience could get a better look at his belly rolls. Thank God that's what he was doing because nobody threw money after that, but it looked like he was going to be immature.

Zorba · 12-13-2006, 04:33 PM

I once saw a very well regarded and famous male Belly Dancer actually tear his shirt off during a performance.

I was turned off cold.

He shouldn't have been wearing a shirt (of all things) in the first place - but far more importantly, tearing it off was utterly sending the wrong signals. What does that have to do with Belly Dance?

Sleazy.

Aisha Azar · 12-13-2006, 04:52 PM

Dear Group,
As dancers, we have different attitudes toward the dance than does the general public. Because of this, I think it is very important to clarify what is being done on stage. I would agree that from a dancer's standpoint, the tearing off of the shirt was an unnecessary theatrical gimick. But, the general public has no idea whether or not they have just seen something that qualifies as "belly dance". They will build an attitude toward the dance based on a lot of stuff that is not dance, until WE start taking the responsibility to educate them to what the dance is and is not.
Anyone can put on a costume (of sorts) and say they are belly dancing. My entire campaign to get clarity is all about the attitudes and furthering of the education of the general public in order to not only define the dance clearly, but also to expand knowledge and upgrade attitudes. Before that can be done, WE have to get clear with our various dances. How can we expect a good attitude from the public if we don't know what we are doing half the time?
Regards,
A'isha

Sara · 12-13-2006, 04:58 PM

I agree with Aniseteph about the Uk. I don't think it's half as bad here. You all seem to have problems somewhere along the line. My only probbers was my fam.

I think the UKers are too busy worrying about whether or not writing on black boards is politically correct to be bothered thinking about belly dancers as owt else but belly dancers...

Perhaps it's cause there's more people in America?

Yasmine Bint Al Nubia · 12-13-2006, 05:16 PM

Hi Everyone, It may appear that the U.S. has more problems with the image of Oriental dance, but that may be due to the number of outspoken forum members! It seems to me with the increasing number of students and teachers here in the States, the Oriental community has an obligation to police itself in terms of attitudes and imagery. It only takes a handful of unethical and undereducated dancers to sully the positive hard work of others.
But rather focus on the negative aspects, I can see where Oriental Dance is slowly becoming an accepted part of the creative arts community. There are more staged shows here in the U.S. and In Europe. Our troupe has been invited to perform at our local Arts Expo for the last three years, art gallery openings too. Even the type of students joining classes are seeking to use the art form for something other than sexual titilation(based on our students). Even the music style is becoming fused and more well-known. So there are some positives attitudes being generated here in the States.
Yasmine

Silvinka · 12-13-2006, 07:01 PM

I am affraid of the way people think about body shape. Since the "modeling buissiness" went booming, it seems like everybody has to be skinnier then skinny. But when i tell people i started bellydancing, they say: well you've got the figure for it!" And im not skinny like Nicole Kidman for example. And that is pleasing to hear, that you don't have to be like a skeleton for being or becoming a good dancer! Is that also a part of an "internatiol aditude" that in bellydance bodyshape is not an issue?

Aisha Azar · 12-13-2006, 07:24 PM

Dear Silvinka,
In the States there is a huge hang-up about body size/weight. I was once a thin dancer and now I am a fat dancer. I notice that people in the non-dance public are at first more attracted to thin dancers, whether or not they can dance, than they are to fat dancers who can. This is just another fact of dance life. Fortunately, there are many people who do begin to discern that body size is not the defining factor in this art form.
Regards,
A'isha

Zorba · 12-14-2006, 01:08 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by A'isha Azar

I would agree that from a dancer's standpoint, the tearing off of the shirt was an unnecessary theatrical gimick. But, the general public has no idea whether or not they have just seen something that qualifies as "belly dance". They will build an attitude toward the dance based on a lot of stuff that is not dance, until WE start taking the responsibility to educate them to what the dance is and is not.

Agreed. Replay my rant about sleazy dancers!

The baffling thing about it was that this particular male dancer was a VERY well known one whom I know darn well knows better. I won't sully his name by outing him as he never had done it before to the best of my knowledge, and hasn't since. Plus he is an awesome dancer. Probably, he just "went with the moment", and asked himself later "WHY did I do that?".

Zorba · 12-14-2006, 01:13 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by A'isha Azar

Dear Silvinka,
In the States there is a huge hang-up about body size/weight. I was once a thin dancer and now I am a fat dancer. I notice that people in the non-dance public are at first more attracted to thin dancers, whether or not they can dance, than they are to fat dancers who can. This is just another fact of dance life. Fortunately, there are many people who do begin to discern that body size is not the defining factor in this art form.
Regards,
A'isha

Fortunately, the exact opposite often occurs within our community. I certainly know some dancers that range from large, to Large, to LARGE, to *HUGE* - and they are all an utter joy to watch! They're great in class too - you can see what they're doing and thus they're very easy to follow!

Far better that than the emaciated, boulemic Nazi death camp survivor look. We've all seen these poor gals, some of them can even dance - but who can tell?

chryssanthi sahar · 12-14-2006, 03:47 AM

Oh, the T-shirt tearing problem wouldn't exist in Greece, because almost all male belly dancers there dance with naked upper body

This is the Greek male-belly-dancer-stereotype: slim (or even skinny), dark tanned (so that he looks Arabian. Some of them are naturally dark though), bloomers on, naked upper body (well, some of them wear a kind of jewelry). As about doing different stuff in order to get tips from the ladies: yes, they do. But to be honest, it is fun to watch, if they can dance well

I think it is not always possible to perform belly dance as higher art form. I wish it were, but dancers who dance in bouzoukia clubs have to be good entertainers on the first place. It is almost impossible to perform artistic belly dance in the bouzoukia clubs. That's why we (this means me, Maria and some other serious Greek dancers) are trying to find other possibilities to present belly dance as an art form on stage.

12-13-2006, 06:10 AM	#11 (permalink)
prince ali baba Member Join Date: Jul 2006 Posts: 61	That remind's me Reading these posts reminds me of something I heard after folk dance class one night. I went with the teachers and a few other members of our group to Marie Calendar's Restaurant like we did back in the late 90s. I was telling one of the newbies I was interested in learning how to belly dance and dance with veils and such. I brought up the name Arturo who used to belly dance somewhere in Southern California. This newbie told me how Arturo is excellent. He then went on to say how some male belly dancers he's seen,not Arturo, will do an x rated move just to get women to tip them. He said that some male belly dancers will take off there vest to get tips from women. I was shocked to hear this since I thought that only some immature girls would do something like this. Anyway after I went to YouTube.com I started watching a video of a male belly dancer. It looked like he was taking off his vest to show more of his shirtless body. However what he was doing was just opening the vest up so the audience could get a better look at his belly rolls. Thank God that's what he was doing because nobody threw money after that, but it looked like he was going to be immature.

12-13-2006, 04:33 PM	#12 (permalink)
Zorba Moderator Join Date: Jul 2006 Posts: 822	I once saw a very well regarded and famous male Belly Dancer actually tear his shirt off during a performance. I was turned off cold. He shouldn't have been wearing a shirt (of all things) in the first place - but far more importantly, tearing it off was utterly sending the wrong signals. What does that have to do with Belly Dance? Sleazy. __________________ -Zorba "The Veiled Male" http://www.doubleveil.net "There is nothing sadder than a veil, that is for sale."

12-13-2006, 04:52 PM	#13 (permalink)
Aisha Azar V.I.P. Join Date: Jul 2006 Location: Pacific Northwest USA Posts: 4,194	National attitudes Dear Group, As dancers, we have different attitudes toward the dance than does the general public. Because of this, I think it is very important to clarify what is being done on stage. I would agree that from a dancer's standpoint, the tearing off of the shirt was an unnecessary theatrical gimick. But, the general public has no idea whether or not they have just seen something that qualifies as "belly dance". They will build an attitude toward the dance based on a lot of stuff that is not dance, until WE start taking the responsibility to educate them to what the dance is and is not. Anyone can put on a costume (of sorts) and say they are belly dancing. My entire campaign to get clarity is all about the attitudes and furthering of the education of the general public in order to not only define the dance clearly, but also to expand knowledge and upgrade attitudes. Before that can be done, WE have to get clear with our various dances. How can we expect a good attitude from the public if we don't know what we are doing half the time? Regards, A'isha

12-13-2006, 04:58 PM	#14 (permalink)
Sara V.I.P. Join Date: Jul 2006 Location: Wales/Yorkshire Posts: 1,160	I agree with Aniseteph about the Uk. I don't think it's half as bad here. You all seem to have problems somewhere along the line. My only probbers was my fam. I think the UKers are too busy worrying about whether or not writing on black boards is politically correct to be bothered thinking about belly dancers as owt else but belly dancers... Perhaps it's cause there's more people in America? __________________ With a little bit of this and a little bit of that, now shake your bum.... :P

12-13-2006, 07:24 PM	#17 (permalink)
Aisha Azar V.I.P. Join Date: Jul 2006 Location: Pacific Northwest USA Posts: 4,194	Attitude Dear Silvinka, In the States there is a huge hang-up about body size/weight. I was once a thin dancer and now I am a fat dancer. I notice that people in the non-dance public are at first more attracted to thin dancers, whether or not they can dance, than they are to fat dancers who can. This is just another fact of dance life. Fortunately, there are many people who do begin to discern that body size is not the defining factor in this art form. Regards, A'isha

12-13-2006, 05:16 PM	#15 (permalink)
Yasmine Bint Al Nubia V.I.P. Join Date: Jul 2006 Location: Akron, Ohio Posts: 1,112	Hi Everyone, It may appear that the U.S. has more problems with the image of Oriental dance, but that may be due to the number of outspoken forum members! It seems to me with the increasing number of students and teachers here in the States, the Oriental community has an obligation to police itself in terms of attitudes and imagery. It only takes a handful of unethical and undereducated dancers to sully the positive hard work of others. But rather focus on the negative aspects, I can see where Oriental Dance is slowly becoming an accepted part of the creative arts community. There are more staged shows here in the U.S. and In Europe. Our troupe has been invited to perform at our local Arts Expo for the last three years, art gallery openings too. Even the type of students joining classes are seeking to use the art form for something other than sexual titilation(based on our students). Even the music style is becoming fused and more well-known. So there are some positives attitudes being generated here in the States. Yasmine

12-13-2006, 07:01 PM	#16 (permalink)
Silvinka Junior Member Join Date: Dec 2006 Location: The Netherlands Posts: 26	I am affraid of the way people think about body shape. Since the "modeling buissiness" went booming, it seems like everybody has to be skinnier then skinny. But when i tell people i started bellydancing, they say: well you've got the figure for it!" And im not skinny like Nicole Kidman for example. And that is pleasing to hear, that you don't have to be like a skeleton for being or becoming a good dancer! Is that also a part of an "internatiol aditude" that in bellydance bodyshape is not an issue?

12-14-2006, 03:47 AM	#20 (permalink)
chryssanthi sahar Moderator Join Date: Jul 2006 Location: Heidelberg, Germany Posts: 1,441	Oh, the T-shirt tearing problem wouldn't exist in Greece, because almost all male belly dancers there dance with naked upper body This is the Greek male-belly-dancer-stereotype: slim (or even skinny), dark tanned (so that he looks Arabian. Some of them are naturally dark though), bloomers on, naked upper body (well, some of them wear a kind of jewelry). As about doing different stuff in order to get tips from the ladies: yes, they do. But to be honest, it is fun to watch, if they can dance well I think it is not always possible to perform belly dance as higher art form. I wish it were, but dancers who dance in bouzoukia clubs have to be good entertainers on the first place. It is almost impossible to perform artistic belly dance in the bouzoukia clubs. That's why we (this means me, Maria and some other serious Greek dancers) are trying to find other possibilities to present belly dance as an art form on stage. __________________ Oriental dancer and instructor of Greek origin, living in Germany www.chryssanthi.com