Tarik Sultan

Honestly, I'm surprised by the level of tension in this thread. and just as confused by all the fuss. Its not like anything has been said that we don't already know because we've discussed these issues to death a thousand time in this year alone.

we all know that in Middle eastern societies it is accpetable to dance socially at home with your family and friends, but looked down upon for a woman to perform in public. we already know that women who do so are considered prostitutes. we also know that ironically, even though top celebraties are admired for their fame and wealth, they are not necessarily respected on moral grounds. WE ALREADY KNOW THIS. Ai'sh was not trying to say that this was not the case. she was just pointing out that there are some dancers who are greatly admired.

As for all the negative religious bashing. Honestly, it has no place here. There is a BIG difference between what a religion teaches and what people choose to do. I don't believe it was fair to judge aisha so harshly because she pointed out some of the positive aspects of Islam. It is a fact that Islam did give rights and teach respect and equality and social justice. However, it is also true that many people who consider themselves to be muslim have and do behave in ways that contradict those principles. However, we can say the same about Christianity, Judaism, and other religions as well. Most of the practices that deprive people of their rights have more to do with cultural practices and nothing to do with religion, however, it is usually the case that people often confuse cultural practices with religion or use religion to justify them. In this respect, "muslim cultures" have not acted differently than christian, or Jewish societies where religion and government was one in the same. Remember our own history and why we go to such lengths to maintain a separation between church and state.

Honestly there isn't one organized religion that does not have a history of persecuting minority religious groups. A thorogh reading of history will show that the persecuted of today were often the persecuters of yesteryears. when Judaism was the major religion in Palestine 2,000 years ago, they persecuted christian, Remember why Paul was on his way to Damascus? Look it up in the New Testament, he was on his way to kill christian infidels. when Christianity became the dominant religion in Egypt, they persecuted the followers of the old pharonic religion. One needs only look at all the defaced temples all over Egypt to see this. Christians also persecuted Jews as well as the Roman pagans, who had first persecuted them when they were in power. Muslims in Arabia were first persecuted by the pagan Meccans and there were Jews who took up arms against them as well, then the tide was turned and guess what? Yep you guessed it.

I'm originally from the Caribbean. There are no longer any native Taino, or arawaks in my country nor any of the other islands, know why? In 1492 Catholic Christians from Spain "discovered" us. You can read The devestation of the Indies by Bartholome De las Casas.

As for "muslims" attitudes about dancers, I can vouch for the fact that Coptic christians feel the same way about them. I travel to Egypt every summer and live in asection of esbekiya with a large christian population. I also live in a large egyptian community in New Jersy with a large christian community.

I know this has been long, but I felt the need to chime in because this thread went in a very negative direction. Religious fundamental extreemism is not a "muslim problem", its a HUMAN problem and calling the followers of one religion liars only feeds the cycle of destructive negativity. This is why so many of us here in America, like myself and aisha, refuse to formally belong to any specific religion, but to respect all of them and worship God privaetly in our own way.

chryssanthi sahar

Dear Tarik, I basically agree with you, but there are some facts, one cannot oversee. One fact is, that Islamic fundamentalism is growing very fast in our days and that what it stands for, is definitely against our Western ideas of democracy, equality of the two sexes and freedom of the individual. Don't get me wrong: I'm not talking about Islam in general, I'm talking about Islamic fundamentalism. But unfortunately this is the direction Islam is going today (in many countries. Of course not in all).
Another fact is, that every religion goes through phases of tolerance and phases of fanaticism. Christianity has been through phases of fanaticism (for example at the time of the Crusades), Judaism has been through such phases and of course Islam. Right now we have a revival of such a fanatic phase in Islam. You and the other Americans and Western Europeans may not understand that well what this means, but for somebody like Bin Rodi, who is a Christian living in an Islamic country and probably experiencing everyday discrimination, the matter looks different. I must admit that also we Greeks are not in such a good faith about Islam, because we had experienced 400 years of occupation through an Islamic nation (the Ottoman Turks) and we got a taste of what this can mean. During the Ottoman occupation there had been times, when the Turks were quite liberal about the religions of the subordinated nations, but there had been other times, when they were quite severe and tried to force people to convert to Islam. Of course, as I mentioned before, there had been such phases also in Christianity. But right now we hardly have such a phase in Christian societies (except maybe some christian fundamentalist areas in the US). So sorry, but I am not too optimistic about the Islam of today.

__________________
Oriental dancer and instructor of Greek origin, living in Germany
www.chryssanthi.com

chryssanthi sahar

Dear Aisha, dear Bin Rodi.

I think the hard debate between you is very typical for a cultural misunderstanding.
AISHA you talk often about your Arabian friends. May I ask a question? Are those Arabians friends directly from Arabian countries? This means, born and grown up in some Arabian country and been at the US for less than 10 years, or if living there longer, do they have their primary families in their home countries and visit their home countries at least once a year? Or are they mainly Arabs born and grown up in the States? One should be really careful when it comes to emigrants who were born and grown up in America (or elsewhere). They never represent the actual society and way of thinking of their home countries. I know this very well, because of all the American and Australian Greeks I know, but even the German Greeks who were born and grown up here in Germany.
BIN RODI, maybe it is not understandable for you, but if Aisha is talking with respect about Mohammad, this doesn't mean that she is a Muslim. She is an American who tries to have understanding and acceptance for a different religion and different culture than her own. One could also call it : trying to be politically correct. Since the American society consists of many different nations, races and religions it is essential for the Americans to respect those differences (they had not always done so in the past), in order to be able to co-exist in peace.

__________________
Oriental dancer and instructor of Greek origin, living in Germany
www.chryssanthi.com

chryssanthi sahar

Dear Kiraze,
you are right, one cannot generalize. But since I know very many Turks and I have also been to Turkey, I know that a big majority of the Turks doesn't have such a good opinion about belly dancers. Well, maybe the image of belly dancers is changing slowly, but for many Turks a "dansöz" is still not lot better that a prostitute. This of course doesn't keep me from performing at Turkish weddings, restaurants etc., because since I am not a Turk myself (and also not a Muslim), it is irrelevant for me how my Turkish audience would think of me as a person. For me it is only relevant how they would think of me as a dancer .

__________________
Oriental dancer and instructor of Greek origin, living in Germany
www.chryssanthi.com

Tarik Sultan

Believe me, I totally understand everything you are saying. what I am saying is that you have to realize that there is a VERY big differeence between what a religion teaches and what people try to make it. The reactionary fundamentalist movements we now see in the Middle east is a perfect example of this.

Islam teaches that there can be no complusion in religion, it must come from your heart or your conversion means nothing. However, because people have THEIR OWN AGENDAS and self centered need for power and control, they do things to force people to change and then try to justify it by saying they are doing it for God. That is just one example.

As for christians, don't be fooled, there are a lot of them who are every bit as dangerous as any Muslim fundamentalist. We still have christian terrorist groups like the KKK and other white supremist groups, not to mention survivalist groups who are against the government and are armed to the teeth and run terrorist training camps. They are anticipating a racial war as well as a war with the government. They believe that a woman's only place is in the home and they have no business outside of that role.

I myself had once belonged to a very fundamentalist church. Women who voiced an opinion or didn't get permission from their husbands were accused of being possessed by the spirit of Jezabel. They even perached that women who had sex outside of marriage should be stoned just like in the old testament. When the AIDS epidemic broke out, they praised God that he was destroying the sinners. I can tell you for a fact that right here in america, there were churches that praised God when the Twin Towers fell on 9/11 because they believed God was punishing this wicked society. Every day these people are getting more power in the government. George Bush is one of them. He really believes that God is directing him.

I could go on and tell you many grusome things that I experienced and have seen Christians do in the name of God. This is why I' say that religious fundamentalism is not a Muslim problem, it is a human problem. Once again, do not be fooled into a false sense of security. In the states we are facing a growing threat.

as for egypt. I'm not ignorant. I go there every summer and live in a blue collar neighborhood. I am well aware of what is happening there. The only thing I would say to bin rodi, is that hatred only breaths more hatred. Jesus was the one who said love those who hate you. There is a reason why he said that. Meeting hatred with haterd only creates more hatred. If I followed that rational, I would have to hate you as well as most everyone in this form because of how europeans have, and still are treating people of color.

Gabi

Too tired to write but I want to Chryssanthi and Tarik both. What you two say is not mutually exclusive and it both rings very true to me, thanks for making the effort to write all that.

I personally wish extremist fundamentalism in any religion did not exist but it is most assuredly rising in all factions to very scary levels.

Aisha Azar

Dear Chryssanthi,
Yes, my friends are for the most part raised in Arab countries. My best freind was lived in Saudi Arabia until she was 24 years old. ( She has been here for7 years.) She also spent time in other countries, coming from a family that did a lot of traveling. Another very close friend of ours is from Iskandria and she moved here about 5 years ago. I also have friends and acquaintances from the Gulf and the Levantine countries. The town where I live in Washington is one place where you find many,many refugees and foreign students as well. Because of my, I guess "standing" in the Arab community, many people come to me when a person who is well versed in being an American is needed!! I have done everything from accompanying people to the doctor, to helping them fill out forms to get kids in school, to being in attendance at a death, to helping fill out INS papers and writing letters of recomendation. I believe this is because I am trusted.
I also know first and second generation Arab Americans, but many of them are still children, being the off-spring of my freinds. When I relate what my friends say, I am telling you about their experiences in their own countries that they relate to me. If something is my own opinion, I try very hard to distinguish between what I think and what they say.
I agree that there is a difference between Arab Americans and Arabs who were born in countries of family origin. In fact, to keep the ties alive, many of my Arab freinds return home to get married and they bring their new spouses back to America to live, work etc. This seems to be the practice among MOST of the Arabs I know.


Dear Tarik,
Thank you once again for helping to clarify my position.

Regards to you both,
A'isha

bin_rodi

bin_rodi

see
now tell me guys what's in common in Egypt, Saudi Arabia and turkey???

bin_rodi