What is it we do if it's not Bellydance

jenc · 08-02-2008, 02:30 PM

I have an Egyptian teacher, an ex-professional dancer. she's certainly teaching us bellydance in the time lead and copy way. We do the best we can - with varying success. most of us have no danger of being mistaken for egyptians though. For anyone who says we aren't doing bellydance..... what are we doing then???

It's certainly not fusion... the teaching is all egyptian, but not broken down.

IMHO we are doing bellydance........ albeit badly.

you can say that the students are nowhere near as good as the teacher. you can say that the students don't understand the cultural essence of the dance of the dance, and I would be forced to agree.

What you cannot do IMO is to say that the students are performing a totally different dance form, especially one that doesn't even have a name.

PS the posters for our show say "Professional Bellydance Troupe" that's a good example of Egyptian exaggeation and cultural difference!!

Reen.Blom · 08-02-2008, 05:27 PM

Isnt there by now such a thing as just "bellydance"? ...LOL Egyptian..... I dunno... also too varied from dancer to dancer....

Salome · 08-02-2008, 07:26 PM

Really good topic to explore! I'm re vamping an article on the topic actually so it is of particular interest to me right now. These are my opinions and perspective...

I'm not talking about different folk dances here but strictly Oriental dance as a performance art...

I see about six core elements, or building blocks that make up Oriental dance. Movement is one. There are a finite number of movement groups used in Oriental dance. Lifts, drops, slides, snaps, circles, figure eights, undulations, shimmies, spins and traveling steps. For example, an arabesque, hip lift, pelvic tilt, releve, rib lift - all of these fall into the lift family group of movements.

The next core element is movement expression. Here I see several points - the actual technique used to produce a movement, where on the body it is used and how the movement is 'heard' or applied to the music.

This is where we start to see uniqueness between the culturally specific forms of Oriental. For example technique wise, the bolder, more external hip lift, powered by the leg versus the internal, more subtle hip lift accented more muscularly in Egyptian. 'Where on the body it is used'? Let's make a generality and take an undulation for example. The Lebanese style may apply undulation to the arms/hands, whereas the Egyptian might more commonly express it on the torso.

The music itself is another core element. The purpose, I think, is pretty much universal to the indigenous Oriental styles, physically and emotionally manifesting the music. But the 'look' of that is very specific to each style.

Costuming too is a core element and each style has its own history and fashion related to costuming. And then there is the (as Aisha calls it) essence . You might call it attitude or flavor... That's a big part of the equation and there are many factors there. How actual performance itself is approached. The kind of informal, laid back feeling of Egyptian versus the more formal, theatric 'performance' of Turkish. There is the whole cultural makeup and context that comes through also. And much else...

So if I am a foreigner and I want to do Turkish style Oriental dance, it's not enough for me to just learn the movement families. It's only one building block. I need to embrace all of the core elements of Turkish style and bring them together to really make it happen.

There is a difference between style and personality. If we look at a group of famous dancers, Lucy, Dina, Fifi and Nagwa. They all do Egyptian style but what makes it unique from each other is their personality. They are not cookie cutters. It does not mean if you observe the core elements that you will be a robot, that there is no room for YOU in there.

What is it we do if it's not Bellydance? I don't think I could, fairly, identify it unless I saw exactly what ingredients were present. And this IS wildly different from one person to the next. Maybe a dancer has all the core elements under her belt but essence. You could call it westernized Egyptian or something indicative of the western essence.

There is no such thing as generic belly dance, there are specific styles of belly dance. Though maybe that has been/is being formulated and really taken root already. A kind of generic western belly dance.

Reen.Blom · 08-02-2008, 08:27 PM

Bravo Salome! Very interesting indeed, really makes it so much clear to me!

And that was my exact feeling- that there is "generic western belly dance", in the USA and Europe, Russia, etc. I think many dancers fail at copying Egyptian, because they have no deep knowledge of the Culture and its nuances, or they do posses the knowledge but say perform more "informal Egyptian" to the audience that has no understanding and appreciation of the nuances...

I have seen several time public being more impressed by glitsy theatrical performances, rather than subtle Egyption expression, eg of the music with lip-syncing and gestures which were NOT familiar to GP. I am talking here about cultural difference of the Audience as well, same dancer maybe would be a star with egyptians, but leave other culture audience unmoved? I think for those with no ME background, we need to feel what is closer to us, if we are able to absorb and express it the Egyptian way or maybe we express it in the same "language" as our non ME audience?

Anyhow, Thanks again Salome!!!

Phoebedances · 08-03-2008, 04:56 AM

That was a beautiful explanation, Salome

Jenc,

I would say to be comfortable in any style of bellydance that one has to be very grounded in the basic moves. I think Egyptian teachers of Egyptian BD are very much in the category of 'Okay, follow me.. do this.. and this.. and ta dah! We are so beautiful.. everyone will love us!!' kind of teachers. I know I had my moments in class like this, although my teacher was good enough to break down many of the movements, it was alot through imitation that I learned.

I empathize with you though of the feeling of not really 'getting it'. I felt that way sometimes. It might help to ask your teacher, 'How are you doing that?" Sometimes when my teacher would get into 'show mode' if I did that she would explain a bit more.

I think it's hard for me not to want to pull some moves I've learned into my style even if they aren't purely Egyptian. Alot of the time, my teacher would say, 'I didn't teach you that..' when I would do a hand gesture or a clockwork step in a choreography I was working on. But she was good enough to let me keep the things that worked into Egyptian style as part of what I would be as a dancer. It made me a little different than everyone else, and that's a good thing.

Kashmir · 08-03-2008, 06:14 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Reen.Blom

I have seen several time public being more impressed by glitsy theatrical performances, rather than subtle Egyption expression, eg of the music with lip-syncing and gestures which were NOT familiar to GP. I am talking here about cultural difference of the Audience as well, same dancer maybe would be a star with egyptians, but leave other culture audience unmoved? I think for those with no ME background, we need to feel what is closer to us, if we are able to absorb and express it the Egyptian way or maybe we express it in the same "language" as our non ME audience?

A bit like a GP audience at the Opera? Pop music is more accessible to most people, and if you are clear that is what you are offering it isn't a problem. Problems arise when because of lack of talent, ability or audience reaction someone sells tickets to an "Opera" and delivers a slick pop concert. The singers may be great for pop, but it isn't opera. Worse, if some people then leave thinking they have seen opera. Hayley Westerner anyone?

adiemus · 08-03-2008, 06:28 AM

I'm keen to read what A'isha has to say in this vein! I think we're adhering to the core of bellydance by following the movements, but we each bring something of the 'essence' (often expressed as movement expression as Salome puts it!) of our own background including, of course, our culture.

This means that no matter how we try we will express *our* version of bellydance very differently from someone in another country.

I think this is especially distinctive between, for example, the US where bellydance has been in existance for possibly the longest outside of the middleastern countries, and New Zealand and Australia and parts of Asia where it's newer or more recently introduced.

Costuming, to me, is a fairly superficial difference, although important. Given that costuming is always evolving (oh fickle creatures we are!!) I can see that this will continue - but the underlying dance movements that the costume reveals (or hides) are far more significant in terms of differences, I think.

A question: do you think that most dancers dance for the general public, or for themselves, or for 'educated' viewers? And does this make a difference?

adiemus · 08-03-2008, 06:29 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kashmir

Hayley Westerner anyone?

Reen.Blom · 08-03-2008, 08:01 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kashmir

A bit like a GP audience at the Opera? Pop music is more accessible to most people, and if you are clear that is what you are offering it isn't a problem. Problems arise when because of lack of talent, ability or audience reaction someone sells tickets to an "Opera" and delivers a slick pop concert. The singers may be great for pop, but it isn't opera. Worse, if some people then leave thinking they have seen opera. Hayley Westerner anyone?

No I dont mean pop and opera.... I REALLY would not compare Egyptian to Opeara...LOL But maybe the reason was that Egyptian is more intimate dance, dancer being AMONG the audience, say like at a wedding dancing with them, when say in MY culture a dancer at a restaurant would still dance on stage, and even if members get up to dance it never gets as "close" as in Egypt??

And again when members of the audience do not understand the language, the dancer's (the one I have seen, she was brilliant) interpretation of the lyrics could not 'get through' to the people? Also there were many dances who actually opted for instrumental pieces, since GP enjoyed it more (it is true that many DISLIKED arabic singing, cos of %#$%$# they are fed on TV).

I am NOT talking for UK or US, but a different experience.

So when a girl came out technically beautiful, but created a dance of a ''mermaid" in a glitsy mermeid like constume everyone was head over heels....

I mean what right we have to say that the audience is "stupid" to prefer pop to opera? I think if you want to compare, they prefer "westernized" opera in contast with "original" Opera...

And can we really say that because it is westernized it is inferior?

One example of my mom. I was watching lots of clips and she really enjoyed AmCab or other European dancers. But when she saw Dina dance in a short dress and her typical low cut top showing more than I would want to see... LOL my mom said "oh THAT's how they dance in Egypt" and said something about "shaking assets instead of dancing".... SO? Who am I to tell her that she has 'WRONG' understanding??? It is a different culture for her, and she much prefered dance on stage than such dance among the audience, which almost seemed indecent to her????

jenc · 08-03-2008, 09:50 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Salome

Really good topic to explore! I'm re vamping an article on the topic actually so it is of particular interest to me right now. These are my opinions and perspective...

I'm not talking about different folk dances here but strictly Oriental dance as a performance art...

I see about six core elements, or building blocks that make up Oriental dance. Movement is one. There are a finite number of movement groups used in Oriental dance. Lifts, drops, slides, snaps, circles, figure eights, undulations, shimmies, spins and traveling steps. For example, an arabesque, hip lift, pelvic tilt, releve, rib lift - all of these fall into the lift family group of movements.

The next core element is movement expression. Here I see several points - the actual technique used to produce a movement, where on the body it is used and how the movement is 'heard' or applied to the music.

This is where we start to see uniqueness between the culturally specific forms of Oriental. For example technique wise, the bolder, more external hip lift, powered by the leg versus the internal, more subtle hip lift accented more muscularly in Egyptian. 'Where on the body it is used'? Let's make a generality and take an undulation for example. The Lebanese style may apply undulation to the arms/hands, whereas the Egyptian might more commonly express it on the torso.

The music itself is another core element. The purpose, I think, is pretty much universal to the indigenous Oriental styles, physically and emotionally manifesting the music. But the 'look' of that is very specific to each style.

Costuming too is a core element and each style has its own history and fashion related to costuming. And then there is the (as Aisha calls it) essence . You might call it attitude or flavor... That's a big part of the equation and there are many factors there. How actual performance itself is approached. The kind of informal, laid back feeling of Egyptian versus the more formal, theatric 'performance' of Turkish. There is the whole cultural makeup and context that comes through also. And much else...

So if I am a foreigner and I want to do Turkish style Oriental dance, it's not enough for me to just learn the movement families. It's only one building block. I need to embrace all of the core elements of Turkish style and bring them together to really make it happen.

There is a difference between style and personality. If we look at a group of famous dancers, Lucy, Dina, Fifi and Nagwa. They all do Egyptian style but what makes it unique from each other is their personality. They are not cookie cutters. It does not mean if you observe the core elements that you will be a robot, that there is no room for YOU in there.

What is it we do if it's not Bellydance? I don't think I could, fairly, identify it unless I saw exactly what ingredients were present. And this IS wildly different from one person to the next. Maybe a dancer has all the core elements under her belt but essence. You could call it westernized Egyptian or something indicative of the western essence.

There is no such thing as generic belly dance, there are specific styles of belly dance. Though maybe that has been/is being formulated and really taken root already. A kind of generic western belly dance.

I do understand all about the different elements. I think my point was more about semantics. If you need all these elments to be considered to be doing bellydance, the logical outcome is:
The teacher is teaching bellydance. she and perhaps one of her students are doing bellydance. the rest of us are doing something nameless. my position is that the rest of us ARE doing bellydance (badly). some of us may get to solo at local haflas without ever getting to the heart of what we are doing. Even more strangely, some of us actually have an idea of what we are aspiring to and may one day get there (I hope). So although I was being taught bellydance, I wasn't doing it as a student, but one day I will be INSHALLAH!

So I, along with everyone else I know will continue to say what we do is bellydance.

Fusion.............. No that's an entirely different matter

08-02-2008, 02:30 PM	#1 (permalink)
jenc V.I.P. Join Date: Feb 2008 Location: Colchester UK Posts: 1,029	What is it we do if it's not Bellydance I have an Egyptian teacher, an ex-professional dancer. she's certainly teaching us bellydance in the time lead and copy way. We do the best we can - with varying success. most of us have no danger of being mistaken for egyptians though. For anyone who says we aren't doing bellydance..... what are we doing then??? It's certainly not fusion... the teaching is all egyptian, but not broken down. IMHO we are doing bellydance........ albeit badly. you can say that the students are nowhere near as good as the teacher. you can say that the students don't understand the cultural essence of the dance of the dance, and I would be forced to agree. What you cannot do IMO is to say that the students are performing a totally different dance form, especially one that doesn't even have a name. PS the posters for our show say "Professional Bellydance Troupe" that's a good example of Egyptian exaggeation and cultural difference!!

08-02-2008, 05:27 PM	#2 (permalink)
Reen.Blom V.I.P. Join Date: Apr 2007 Location: Between Heaven and Earth Posts: 2,263	Isnt there by now such a thing as just "bellydance"? ...LOL Egyptian..... I dunno... also too varied from dancer to dancer.... __________________ Join WORLD BELLY DANCE DAY! www.worldbellydanceday.com

08-02-2008, 07:26 PM	#3 (permalink)
Salome Super Moderator Join Date: Jul 2006 Location: Corvallis, Oregon, USA Posts: 1,810	Really good topic to explore! I'm re vamping an article on the topic actually so it is of particular interest to me right now. These are my opinions and perspective... I'm not talking about different folk dances here but strictly Oriental dance as a performance art... I see about six core elements, or building blocks that make up Oriental dance. Movement is one. There are a finite number of movement groups used in Oriental dance. Lifts, drops, slides, snaps, circles, figure eights, undulations, shimmies, spins and traveling steps. For example, an arabesque, hip lift, pelvic tilt, releve, rib lift - all of these fall into the lift family group of movements. The next core element is movement expression. Here I see several points - the actual technique used to produce a movement, where on the body it is used and how the movement is 'heard' or applied to the music. This is where we start to see uniqueness between the culturally specific forms of Oriental. For example technique wise, the bolder, more external hip lift, powered by the leg versus the internal, more subtle hip lift accented more muscularly in Egyptian. 'Where on the body it is used'? Let's make a generality and take an undulation for example. The Lebanese style may apply undulation to the arms/hands, whereas the Egyptian might more commonly express it on the torso. The music itself is another core element. The purpose, I think, is pretty much universal to the indigenous Oriental styles, physically and emotionally manifesting the music. But the 'look' of that is very specific to each style. Costuming too is a core element and each style has its own history and fashion related to costuming. And then there is the (as Aisha calls it) essence . You might call it attitude or flavor... That's a big part of the equation and there are many factors there. How actual performance itself is approached. The kind of informal, laid back feeling of Egyptian versus the more formal, theatric 'performance' of Turkish. There is the whole cultural makeup and context that comes through also. And much else... So if I am a foreigner and I want to do Turkish style Oriental dance, it's not enough for me to just learn the movement families. It's only one building block. I need to embrace all of the core elements of Turkish style and bring them together to really make it happen. There is a difference between style and personality. If we look at a group of famous dancers, Lucy, Dina, Fifi and Nagwa. They all do Egyptian style but what makes it unique from each other is their personality. They are not cookie cutters. It does not mean if you observe the core elements that you will be a robot, that there is no room for YOU in there. What is it we do if it's not Bellydance? I don't think I could, fairly, identify it unless I saw exactly what ingredients were present. And this IS wildly different from one person to the next. Maybe a dancer has all the core elements under her belt but essence. You could call it westernized Egyptian or something indicative of the western essence. There is no such thing as generic belly dance, there are specific styles of belly dance. Though maybe that has been/is being formulated and really taken root already. A kind of generic western belly dance. Last edited by Salome; 08-02-2008 at 07:44 PM.

08-02-2008, 08:27 PM	#4 (permalink)
Reen.Blom V.I.P. Join Date: Apr 2007 Location: Between Heaven and Earth Posts: 2,263	Bravo Salome! Very interesting indeed, really makes it so much clear to me! And that was my exact feeling- that there is "generic western belly dance", in the USA and Europe, Russia, etc. I think many dancers fail at copying Egyptian, because they have no deep knowledge of the Culture and its nuances, or they do posses the knowledge but say perform more "informal Egyptian" to the audience that has no understanding and appreciation of the nuances... I have seen several time public being more impressed by glitsy theatrical performances, rather than subtle Egyption expression, eg of the music with lip-syncing and gestures which were NOT familiar to GP. I am talking here about cultural difference of the Audience as well, same dancer maybe would be a star with egyptians, but leave other culture audience unmoved? I think for those with no ME background, we need to feel what is closer to us, if we are able to absorb and express it the Egyptian way or maybe we express it in the same "language" as our non ME audience? Anyhow, Thanks again Salome!!! __________________ Join WORLD BELLY DANCE DAY! www.worldbellydanceday.com

08-03-2008, 06:28 AM	#7 (permalink)
adiemus Senior Member Join Date: Jul 2007 Location: Christchurch, New Zealand Posts: 977	I'm keen to read what A'isha has to say in this vein! I think we're adhering to the core of bellydance by following the movements, but we each bring something of the 'essence' (often expressed as movement expression as Salome puts it!) of our own background including, of course, our culture. This means that no matter how we try we will express our version of bellydance very differently from someone in another country. I think this is especially distinctive between, for example, the US where bellydance has been in existance for possibly the longest outside of the middleastern countries, and New Zealand and Australia and parts of Asia where it's newer or more recently introduced. Costuming, to me, is a fairly superficial difference, although important. Given that costuming is always evolving (oh fickle creatures we are!!) I can see that this will continue - but the underlying dance movements that the costume reveals (or hides) are far more significant in terms of differences, I think. A question: do you think that most dancers dance for the general public, or for themselves, or for 'educated' viewers? And does this make a difference? __________________ He wahine, he taonga- Every woman is a treasure(Maori proverb)

08-03-2008, 04:56 AM	#5 (permalink)
Phoebedances Member Join Date: Jul 2008 Location: Tennessee Posts: 310	That was a beautiful explanation, Salome Jenc, I would say to be comfortable in any style of bellydance that one has to be very grounded in the basic moves. I think Egyptian teachers of Egyptian BD are very much in the category of 'Okay, follow me.. do this.. and this.. and ta dah! We are so beautiful.. everyone will love us!!' kind of teachers. I know I had my moments in class like this, although my teacher was good enough to break down many of the movements, it was alot through imitation that I learned. I empathize with you though of the feeling of not really 'getting it'. I felt that way sometimes. It might help to ask your teacher, 'How are you doing that?" Sometimes when my teacher would get into 'show mode' if I did that she would explain a bit more. I think it's hard for me not to want to pull some moves I've learned into my style even if they aren't purely Egyptian. Alot of the time, my teacher would say, 'I didn't teach you that..' when I would do a hand gesture or a clockwork step in a choreography I was working on. But she was good enough to let me keep the things that worked into Egyptian style as part of what I would be as a dancer. It made me a little different than everyone else, and that's a good thing.