Eshta

Jenc, I think you are mulling over some really interesting points.

Salome defines what makes up a particular style very succinctly. Most belly dance classes start with the movement families, and in fact some don't seem to go beyond those.

I also think it is hard to identify the style of belly dance when you are still relatively new to the dance, but that doesn't mean there isn't any leaning towards a particular style. Most teachers have a leaning towards a particular style because that's what they would have learnt, although it doesn't mean it will be 100% genuine authentic, because that's very difficult when you've not been brought up with it. But that is the style the student is likely to pick up to start with, and as they develop they are likely to gravitate to their own preference.

I'll try to explain using my own experiences. My first long-term teacher taught a kind of european-style belly dance: geographically & stylistically a mix between egyptian & amcab I guess. But when I moved on, I wanted to find a teacher who could further my ability to interpret the emotion of the music, certain music could just grab my right down deep in my gut & make me feel all shades of emotion ... turns out the 'seed' that Aisha identified was always along the egyptian style - I just didn't realise that until I had learned to define what 'egyptian' was!

That said, there is a gulf dividing my dance style & what's going on in Cairo now. While I study as hard as I can, there will always have been nearly 2 decades of my life before I discovered arabic music, where I related to music in a different way, that I can't undo. I am still a student of the culture, which is a difficult thing to study from afar, and until I learn Arabic, I certainly will not have the depth of understanding of the songs I am dancing to.

And when I'm pushed to define my style, I tell people that I lean towards Egyptian style, or of Egyptian influence, or say 'it's more egyptian than anything else'. It's not fusion per se, but I suppose inherently anything that isn't pedigree has to be a bit of a mongrel to some degree, right? But a mongrel is a bit different from a cross-breed, which is how I regard fusion- ie, an intentional fusing of more than one style.

I'm very tired, I hope this is making sense!

__________________
Saqarah - London's monthly Belly Dance Hafla!

kayshier

I have read this thread and found the points raised very interesting. And unfortunately somewhat discouraging. I suppose hearing from "purists" has been a bit discouraging.

my issue again, will be one of standards and certification.
if we look at the arguments raised in this thread, then couldn't one way of sifting through the grey areas would be establishing a standard? A standard with specific criteria to say well..what one is doing is a particular style of belly dance.

as it is now, especially for enthusiastic beginners it is very disheartening reading something like this because one is left to wonder if they are actually doing belly dance, or the feeling that they might be well investing a lot of time and money into something only to be told that they were on the wrong track all along.

so why not find a solution rather than carry on an endless debate about what is belly dance and what is not bellydance.
set the standard within the community and establish it.

Aisha Azar

Dear Kayshier,

Because in order to teach the dance and it fusions, we must first define them so that we can better pass on accurate information about all of the different dance forms. Teaching and performing dance is not just passing on a set of movements or getting up in front of an audience and strutting our stuff. It is also about a deeper understanding of what we are doing, and a way of helping all of our different kinds of customers to have a good understanding of it as well. Unfortunately this is not something that comes with a numbered set of instructions. In many ways cut and dried standard setting is even contrary to the nature of the dance in its native environments. It can not be compared to a formula, like a math problem. It is more like trying to analyze a soft breeze on a summer day. How does one set it into a westernized concept of a standard, then?

Regards,
A'isha

jenc

Thank you for your suggestion that I might be dancing more egyptian than I know. However, there are plenty of dancers in the class who have been there 5 or more years, who think they are dancing the same as the teacher and are very definately not.
firstly I was very careful with this part of the post to adopt a neutral tone. As you did not answer this directly, i didnot realise that you had answered me. I have to totally disagree with your answer. In posts elsewhere, you have said that whatever an Egyptian or other native dancer does, they will still have the necessary native cultural essence. Melaya is not a fusion, but a fantasy. Unless two musical or dance styles are being combined, you cannot call it fusion in my book. anyone else want to weigh in on either side of the argument

Aisha Azar

And you do not see that in order to create a fantasy one must fuse elements that might not normally go together? All fantasies are a from of fusion that have earned the name "fantasy" because they bring together elements of reality in such a way as to create a concept that is possible but probably not in the way presented. For example, you might get a talking lion who leads unreal creatures in some story, but in real life, a human talking lion would probably scare the hell out of most of us, never mind the biological problems in such a situation. However, this lion has symbolic meaning beyond its placed as a predator in the animal kingdom, and the symbology , though a fantasy, has fused noble anthropomorphic qualities with what in reality is a lazy slug which lays on its ass while its female counterpart does all the work. Yet, this symbol has fused two things that normally do not work together to creat a fantasy.

jenc

Nothat's just a fantasy, otherwise every new idea in the creative world is a fusion and the term is meaningless. but Is Swan Lake a fusion about swans or Coppelia a fusion about dolls. They are both ballets, and to the best of my knowledge no one has ever claimed them as fusions. Fusion in music and dance has to be fusing two equivalent forms, which have a precise relationship of differences and similarities: although this is not necessarily the same relationship for all fusions, it must be there for the fusion to work.
A fantasy may combine existing things, but there is no necessity for there to be a relationship between them. Where there is no equivalence, it is definately a fantasy. Where the thing does not exist except in imagination it is definately a fantasy.

a fusion in music or dance comes into existance through it's performance. a talking lion does not.

kayshier

Aisha Azar

Dear Kayshier,
I think there are those who never will really know, for various reasons. But.... in order to really learn about a specific style, immerse yourself n it. Read everything you can on the culture from which that style developed. If possible talk to both dancers and the average citizen from country of origin. Study that style in video exclusively for a period of time so that when you look again at other styles, you might be able to see and feel some differences between it and others. Study with instructors that most closely emulate what you see in those videos when it comes to the WAY in which they move, not necessarily in the movements they use.
Also, know that the process of discovering the dance is a long one and does not happen overnight. When I first started dancing, I thought everyone was wonderful, I thought they all knew what they were doing, etc. It took me awhile to catch on that not everyone did know what they were doing, and I decided at some point that I DID want to know what I was doing and why and how I was doing it, etc. But it is a process that is ongoing for the rest of your dance life, partly because the dance is dynamic and changes do take place in countries of origin, partly because we are dynamic and information sort of seeps in when we are ready to receive it. it is a building block process in some ways.
Regards,
A'isha

Aisha Azar

However, the CONCEPT of a talking lion does come through the fusion of the possible with the imagined, which is how nearly everything that humans make is created and developed.


In any case, I am not going to argue the point any further as it is off topic and getting silly. Have it your way way and I'll have it mine.

jenc

OK I perhaps should have allowed for more than one element in fusion (Tribal)

However, as an attempt to define terms it is not that far off topic.

Except that in this topic (which I started) I did not want to talk about fusion. I wanted to talk about the difference between what is taught and what is perceived and reproduced (which is NOT fusion).

To return to something that was said earlier. If the teacher knows that their own style is not authentic, they can always tell their students. However, they cannot simply announce their classes as Western Oriental dance (without addng Bellydance) no one will know what they mean and they will have ZERO students. What we do is understood by the general public and all the dancers around here to be bellydance, even if it is different from the way our teacher dances.

also look at various other threads about < for example, egyptian style. There is a degree of disagreement amongst dancers about which non-natives show authentic style. It has also been said to be somethng that varies within a dancer's career. If it is cultural feeling, musical interpretation etc, it is surely possible to appear intermitently in different parts of the same dance, particularly with a less experienced dancer. Can we say that this or that is not bellydance, and say it unanimously.

Can we convince all dancers to see it the same way, let alone the general public, however much we may try to educate people who come to our shows.

i have said elsewhere that I deplore certain modern usages of words in the public vocabulary. this doen't mean that i stand a hope in hell of changing them.

what we do IS bellydance. you have not convinced me to rewrite the dictionary

Who is to judge? if it is