What is it we do if it's not Bellydance - Page 2

Mosaic · 08-03-2008, 12:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jenc

[snip]
The teacher is teaching bellydance. she and perhaps one of her students are doing bellydance. the rest of us are doing something nameless. my position is that the rest of us ARE doing bellydance (badly). some of us may get to solo at local haflas without ever getting to the heart of what we are doing. Even more strangely, some of us actually have an idea of what we are aspiring to and may one day get there (I hope). So although I was being taught bellydance, I wasn't doing it as a student, but one day I will be INSHALLAH!

So I, along with everyone else I know will continue to say what we do is bellydance.

Fusion.............. No that's an entirely different matter

I consider what I am being taught is bellydance and I am a student (an imperfect, struggling student in some areas, and a beginning to conquer student in other areas, but a student none the less) ... one instructor is Lebanese and basically raised on dance, a style she says is influenced strongly by her own culture and Egyptian...(her dance style blows me away .. I know I will never dance like her ... she has the essence of her culture flowing strongly in her veins), the other is Australian and teaches what she calls Egyptian style, but that definitely has a western (Australian) essence, I add Australian because there are nuances which are clearly different to how an Egyptian dancer expresses the dance and also clear differences in the way US dancers express bellydance. The differences I believe would probably not be noticed by the GP, but very likely would be noticed by other dancers. I don't believe anyone is wrong, it is probably a cultural and unconscious expression. Can we say there is a 'pure' way to express bellydance. But I do believe you do need to understand the music, to me that is the heart beat, without understanding the heart beat, I think bellydance becomes robotic. But that is how students learn to begin with. Just like students at school, the understanding comes later after the some rote learning. But they are still students. Not every student will be perfect, and that goes for bellydance as well.

Am I taking on a Lebanese/Egyptian style or a Western style that is influenced by the styles my teachers teach that has overtures of influence from the Australian culture??? Whatever it turns out to be .. I strongly believe I am being taught bellydance, so I am a student

Gosh I ramble a lot at times

Hope i haven't totally confused everyone, I think I began to confuse myself there

~Mosaic

Marya · 08-03-2008, 02:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by adiemus

I'm keen to read what A'isha has to say in this vein! I think we're adhering to the core of bellydance by following the movements, but we each bring something of the 'essence' (often expressed as movement expression as Salome puts it!) of our own background including, of course, our culture.

This means that no matter how we try we will express *our* version of bellydance very differently from someone in another country.

But trying to achieve authenticity is very motivating and, for me anyway, fun. I will never fool anyone into thinking I am a native of any country other than the US, but I feel I give an adequate, honest representation of "ethnic style" whether that is Persian, Egyptian, Algerian, Turkish or Moroccan. If in the course of learning more I discover what I had been told was authentic turns out to be something that is not, I change how I introduce the dance. Inspired by, based on....

I was hooked on trying to look ethnic when after a few months of classes with a very very American Style teacher I took a workshop from Sahra Kent, just back from Egypt, and as she taught she would explain the meaning of some of the movements in the context of Egyptian culture. I was totally fascinated. For example, one move, a specific kind of hip circle (that Dina does a lot), she said was considered very, very sexy and she had been told by Egyptians not to put too many into a performance.

I am sure some of Sahra's statements were her interpretations of meaning based on her experience and what people had told her.

I heard that she was sponsored to go to Egypt and perform by Farida Famey, so I am thinking that some of this comes from her. Sahra was there for 7 years I think, and she still had her own style with some western accents but definitely did not dance Am Cab any more.

Music has a lot to do with it. and costuming, I find it very jarring to see someone in a "gypsy" style costume dancing to Armenian music and calling it Turkish. Getting all the elements aligned can do a lot for making one look more authentically ethnic.

Marya

Aisha Azar · 08-03-2008, 04:43 PM

Dear Adiemus,

Quote:

Originally Posted by adiemus

I'm keen to read what A'isha has to say in this vein! I think we're adhering to the core of bellydance by following the movements, but we each bring something of the 'essence' (often expressed as movement expression as Salome puts it!) of our own background including, of course, our culture.

This is certainly the most common thinking among western dancers. The core of belly dance is not its movements, but its cultural essence. I disagree with Salome in there being such as thing as "generic western belly dance". Belly dance is not a western art form and is different from its core outward. There are generic western fusion styles that generally sort of incorporate something of movement from the Middle East and North Africa in the broadest sense, because usually the movement lacks the feeling of the Middle Eastern versions of the same movements. All one has to do is watch a clip of someone like Suhaila or Cassandra and compare it to equally great and well known Egyptian or Turkish dancers like Suheir Zaki or Sema Yildiz to see worlds of difference in what is being presented. It is different from the way movement translates culturally, to the way in which the dancers respond to the structures in the music. Even in movement there is a vast difference in how the average western dancer dances. The main reason for that is because without the cultural essence, the dance becomes something else.

I want to say something about the word, "essence" in correlation with dance. I am not being a smart ass here. I am just stating a fact. I am the one who made this word a part of the descriptive vocabulary of dancers. It is a word that describes cultural feeling and spirit in dance. It becomes a personal or individual element only in that a person carries with them into the dance their own world view. World view usually comes from having been raised in a certain culture or place with people who come from the same culture and place. (Then there are people like me who never really got an established cultural world view because we moved every two years as children!!) It is in general how a group of people with the same basic belief systems look at everything in the entire world. Some thinkers on the subject, like Carley Dodd even extend world view to ways of approaching the whole universe. (Dodd is the writer of "Dynamics of Intercultural Communication" ISBN 0-697-32725-6) Mostly people are not really conscious of worldview.
The very minute that you alter the essence of the dance from a Middle Eastern/North African cultural standpoint, you are no longer performing belly dance. You are now performing a fusion style that has an entirely different essence.
OH NO!!! It must be time for a metaphor!!! To use a nice, edible metaphor, many cookies have the same basic ingredients, but then you add that one magic ingredient, and change the "essence" of the cookie completely, even though the other basic ingredients might be the same. If I add raisins and oatmeal to the main cookie recipe, I do not have the same cookie as if I had added chocolate chips and walnuts. Those two ingredients change everything. They are still cookies with flour, sugar etc, but they are completely changed in their texture and flavor. They have become two very distinct kinds of cookies, and I want one!! (Okay, that's off topic!!)

It is that way with dance. All dances have movement as an ingredient. Most have musical accompaniment of some sort though not all. But the texture and flavor of the dance, the way the dancer makes movement happen within cultural boundaries, the way that the dance is expressed in correlation with musical elements, the meaning and purpose of the dance within its cultural boundaries; all of this makes up it's essence and makes it what it is.

Quote:

This means that no matter how we try we will express *our* version of bellydance very differently from someone in another country.

Just as there are really only a few people who will ever be ballerinas of high repute, with excellent skills etc., so it is with belly dance. There are some people who really can step out of their own worldview and somehow express in cultures not their own. Sahra Kent and Jennet are two examples of this. There is a Russian dancer who can do it. I think her name is Alexandra. Kay Artle from Sweden could d it before she decided to change dance styles. Lucy from Washington DC can do it. These women are all belly dancers.
Then we have dancers who are just as beautiful and just as talented who are not belly dancers but perform various styles of fusion with at least some Middle Eastern inspiration. Suhaila Salimpour Khoury, Alexandra King, Tina Sargent, Salome and others represent this sort of ubiquitous western style with many different elements.

Quote:

I think this is especially distinctive between, for example, the US where bellydance has been in existance for possibly the longest outside of the middleastern countries, and New Zealand and Australia and parts of Asia where it's newer or more recently introduced.

It might just be different, but it is still ubiquitously not Middle Eastern. In Asia, dancers seem often to be following the more precise dancers in the western style, such as Jillina or Rachel Brice, who move in ways much more precise and large than Egyptian, or Turkish dancers do and much more precisely than Lebanese dancers. It may be somewhat distinctive from country to country as people add their own cultural essence, but it still does not capture the essence of countries of origin and belly dance is an ethnic dance, every bit as much as nay folkloric dance.

Quote:

Costuming, to me, is a fairly superficial difference, although important. Given that costuming is always evolving (oh fickle creatures we are!!) I can see that this will continue - but the underlying dance movements that the costume reveals (or hides) are far more significant in terms of differences, I think.

I agree, because no matter what the dancer wears, the essence of what she is doing shines through.

Quote:

A question: do you think that most dancers dance for the general public, or for themselves, or for 'educated' viewers? And does this make a difference?

I can not answer this for most dancers, but I dance for all three, being ever mindful that though an educated dancer might have a deeper appreciation for what I am presenting, the general public can enjoy it more also with some knowledge of what is being presented. I think it makes a real difference when one watches a dancer who is only dancing for their own satisfaction. That kind of stuff is immediately recognizable and narcissism on stage is as unattractive as it is anywhere else.
Regards,
A'isha

jenc · 08-03-2008, 06:18 PM

yes but they are still cookies - not casserole or even cake.

TO my understanding fusion needs at least 2 ingredients/styles. Our performance is surely a dilution, rather than a fusion, I understand bellydance/flamenco fusion, and to my mind that is often successful: as a new dance form. I even understand the concept of bellydance/chinese dance fusion - as a concept only as I didn't think that worked. I don't undestand the idea of bellydance/western susceptabilities fusion that's like fusing cookies with wellington boots.
If you say that western attempts at bellydance which try and largely fail are fusion, this takes away any way of discussing and evaluating any fusion of dance styles.

I am quite prepared for you to say that we are terrible at bellydance, but we are sincerely making the attempt

Lydia dubai · 08-03-2008, 07:05 PM

what is it we do if its not bellydance......we dance our belly,? we let our belly dance??makes it bellydance??lol

Salome · 08-03-2008, 07:15 PM

Quote:

I disagree with Salome in there being such as thing as "generic western belly dance".

I was actually just pondering outloud, rather than a commitment to the thought...

Aisha Azar · 08-03-2008, 08:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jenc

yes but they are still cookies - not casserole or even cake.

TO my understanding fusion needs at least 2 ingredients/styles. Our performance is surely a dilution, rather than a fusion, I understand bellydance/flamenco fusion, and to my mind that is often successful: as a new dance form. I even understand the concept of bellydance/chinese dance fusion - as a concept only as I didn't think that worked. I don't undestand the idea of bellydance/western susceptabilities fusion that's like fusing cookies with wellington boots.
If you say that western attempts at bellydance which try and largely fail are fusion, this takes away any way of discussing and evaluating any fusion of dance styles.

I am quite prepared for you to say that we are terrible at bellydance, but we are sincerely making the attempt

And fusion is still dance, it is just not specifically belly dance. One either is a belly dancer or they are not. This is not about the student attempt at the dance. No student should be in the position of being representative of a style they are just learning. Professionals are another story and have some responsibility to be clear with their audiences, including students. If a teacher is teaching something that she calls belly dance, that is western in its essence, she is mislabeling her offering to her class, no matter how beautiful it is and no matter how much skill it takes. People can be great dancers and still not be great belly dancers. That in fact is often the case in western fusion styles.

Aisha Azar · 08-03-2008, 08:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Salome

I was actually just pondering outloud, rather than a commitment to the thought...

Dear Salome,
Sorry, I misunderstood!
Regards,
A'isha

jenc · 08-03-2008, 09:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Aisha Azar

And fusion is still dance, it is just not specifically belly dance. One either is a belly dancer or they are not. This is not about the student attempt at the dance. No student should be in the position of being representative of a style they are just learning. Professionals are another story and have some responsibility to be clear with their audiences, including students. If a teacher is teaching something that she calls belly dance, that is western in its essence, she is mislabeling her offering to her class, no matter how beautiful it is and no matter how much skill it takes. People can be great dancers and still not be great belly dancers. That in fact is often the case in western fusion styles.

Again you are answering some other point than the one I made. My teacher is native egyptian, ex-professional dancer. She has been in this country perhaps about 10 years as she married an englishman and gave up dancing. She teaches, as she dances, Egyptian style, but in typical egyptian style she does not break it down and her students are not always able to follow fully. What we dance, when attempting to do as teacher does, then our dancing has a western accent.

You have also not answered my second point. That if you call something fusion when it is not actually a fusion of one style with another, makes discussion of deliberate fusions meaningless. How can we then say that xy fusion is not true fusion because it does not contain enough x, or that it does not work because the two styles don't relate in the right way.

Aisha Azar · 08-03-2008, 09:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jenc

Again you are answering some other point than the one I made. My teacher is native egyptian, ex-professional dancer. She has been in this country perhaps about 10 years as she married an englishman and gave up dancing. She teaches, as she dances, Egyptian style, but in typical egyptian style she does not break it down and her students are not always able to follow fully. What we dance, when attempting to do as teacher does, then our dancing has a western accent.

As long as you are at the level of a new student, you can not specifically say that your dancing has a western accent. Perhaps I answered you and you did not understand the answer? Perhaps you could also try being a little less accusatory in your tone?

Quote:

You have also not answered my second point. That if you call something fusion when it is not actually a fusion of one style with another, makes discussion of deliberate fusions meaningless. How can we then say that xy fusion is not true fusion because it does not contain enough x, or that it does not work because the two styles don't relate in the right way.

Again, try being a little more pleasant. I did answer you second point and you just did not understand the answer. Fusion does not have to be one style with another. It can be any combination of things. If I use Egyptian movement with no specific spirit or essence, I am still not doing Egyptian dance. I am doing a fusion of Egyptian movement with some other element, not expressly described as being anything in particular. I have never stated that anything is or is not true fusion. Fusion is not dependent on two element ts and is often much more than that, and sometimes those elements have more to do with an individual than they do specific styles of dance. Many of the fusions created by Reda for the stage are a fusion of nothing in particular except an idea and a cultural concept. Melaya is about being cute and flirtatious, fused with wearing a showy, fake Melaya and a few beledi dance moves. The dance has no basis in physical reality but is meant to convey an idea and an essence. He succeeds beautifully without worrying what he is fusing with what. It is still fusion, regardless of whether or not each component has a name.

08-03-2008, 06:18 PM	#14 (permalink)
jenc V.I.P. Join Date: Feb 2008 Location: Colchester UK Posts: 1,050	yes but they are still cookies - not casserole or even cake. TO my understanding fusion needs at least 2 ingredients/styles. Our performance is surely a dilution, rather than a fusion, I understand bellydance/flamenco fusion, and to my mind that is often successful: as a new dance form. I even understand the concept of bellydance/chinese dance fusion - as a concept only as I didn't think that worked. I don't undestand the idea of bellydance/western susceptabilities fusion that's like fusing cookies with wellington boots. If you say that western attempts at bellydance which try and largely fail are fusion, this takes away any way of discussing and evaluating any fusion of dance styles. I am quite prepared for you to say that we are terrible at bellydance, but we are sincerely making the attempt

08-03-2008, 07:05 PM	#15 (permalink)
Lydia dubai V.I.P. Join Date: Jul 2006 Location: Dubai United arab emirates Posts: 1,351	what is it we do if its not bellydance......we dance our belly,? we let our belly dance??makes it bellydance??lol