What is it we do if it's not Bellydance - Page 12

Aniseteph · 08-10-2008, 12:56 PM

Baladi as urban folk agrees with what I've read elsewhere, but I thought shaabi was the streety modern urban thing that Hakim is too middle class to pull off quite right. In defence of my ignorance I am too old to be hip and down with the kids even in my own culture.

Aisha Azar · 08-10-2008, 03:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Aniseteph

Baladi as urban folk agrees with what I've read elsewhere, but I thought shaabi was the streety modern urban thing that Hakim is too middle class to pull off quite right. In defence of my ignorance I am too old to be hip and down with the kids even in my own culture.

Dear Aniseteph,
Raqs Shaabi merely means dance of the people. I read that the Ghawazi refer to their dance as that, the Tunisians definitely refer to some of their dancing as that, and depending on who you talk to, you even find it interchanged with Saidi, as I recently discovered.
Also, dancers seem to call specific styles of dance by these names, whereas the average
Egyptian or Tunisian or Algerian may use the words to mean something different than dancers do.
Beledi can mean country or folk to the average Egyptian, or it can also mean something else, as in the Beledi dogs that you find running around all over the city in Cairo, or Beledi dance, which for dancers is a specific citified style of folkdance with lots of glitz and props and stuff. o Beledi can just be an adjective describing something as old fashioned. A lot seems to depend on the context in which the words are used, not only Beledi but a lot of words in the Arabic langauge seem to have this wonderful fluidity so that meaning is influenced by many different things.
I do not speak Arabic, but I do seem to understand more of it than I really realize most of he time. When I am hanging out, I have frequently surprised myself or my friends by knowing more of what the conversation is about than I thought I did. I am afraid to claim any real knowledge as I learn more and more about how beautifully complex and intricate and even sort of..... I don't know, emotionally intimate somehow.... the language really is.
Regards,
A'isha

Aniseteph · 08-10-2008, 04:36 PM

Thanks A'isha, that makes sense. Beledi is of the country, shaabi of the people. And all accompanying shades of meaning depending on usage.

Aziyade · 08-12-2008, 01:49 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Aisha Azar

The thing is that wondering what poor Egyptian girls would do if they could take ballet is dealing in "what if" instead of what actually is.

Well apparently even in her own family there was not enough $$$ to go around for ALL the children to do everything they wanted. So it's not exactly a "what if." This is, however, no different than ANY family where the child wants to do something, play something, take classes in something, and the family can't afford it. I think you're missing the point of what she was saying.

Quote:

We do have some examples of what happens to ballet in Middle Eastern dance.... and many times it is not very pretty. Look at some of the work of Reda and Fahmi in this area......

I have all the Reda video material that was available in the 90s. Coming from the standpoint of a former ballet dancer, I see very little actual "ballet" in their work. They use stage theory, choreographic theory and group dynamics that are common to Western theatrical dance styles, sure. Reda's influence is very obviously the dance numbers from early Hollywood, and even the camerawork seems very Busby Berkeley-inspired, especially on the indoor sets with the idea of maneuvering THROUGH the stage elements. But this does not equal ballet in any way, shape, or form.

Personally I do not find Farida's dancing insipid, atrocious, uninspiring, or at all as unpleasant as you apparently do. But they are not doing ballet, and they are not doing Raqs Sharqi, and once we get over that we can appreciate their work for what it is -- western-inspired theatrical dance. I find Reda Troupe's work very on-par with the choreography and staging of Western and Soviet work at the time.

Incorporating ballet TECHNIQUE or western choreographic and staging theory does not make one's company a ballet company. The simple idea of pointing one's feet to extend the visual line of the leg is a concept from ballet that has been embraced by many modern Egyptian dancers. (Although in other cultures a pointed foot can be a visual symbol of vulnerability or femininity, or even youth.)

Having ballet classes is not a guarantor that the dance student will be a good dancer, but NOR is it as simple as "Nagwa Fouad had ballet and I don't like her." I personally DO like her, so then, in counterpoint, early ballet training made her a good dancer. (???) whatever.

***

As for the schools - while I realize in Cairo, the RAD have been there for some time (but I still have no evidence there were dance schools of any sort before 1930 -- and I'm still looking so if you have it, please forward!) but Cairo is Cairo. I'm going by what I was told, and that is that in non-urban areas, dance schools did not exist until fairly recently.

This is, again, no different from America, where you can find dance class of ANY sort in Chicago, New York, Miami, LA, etc. But I have to drive for 3 hours to find an Irish dance class, and the closest modern dance company to me is still 2.5 hours away. So it's not like there's one on every corner out here.

Aisha Azar · 08-12-2008, 02:30 PM

Aziyade

Quote:

Originally Posted by Aziyade

Well apparently even in her own family there was not enough $$$ to go around for ALL the children to do everything they wanted. So it's not exactly a "what if." This is, however, no different than ANY family where the child wants to do something, play something, take classes in something, and the family can't afford it. I think you're missing the point of what she was saying.

Oh, yes, I must be missing the point, even though you are the one who is dealing in the wondering if this or that might or could happen.

Quote:

I have all the Reda video material that was available in the 90s. Coming from the standpoint of a former ballet dancer, I see very little actual "ballet" in their work. They use stage theory, choreographic theory and group dynamics that are common to Western theatrical dance styles, sure. Reda's influence is very obviously the dance numbers from early Hollywood, and even the camerawork seems very Busby Berkeley-inspired, especially on the indoor sets with the idea of maneuvering THROUGH the stage elements. But this does not equal ballet in any way, shape, or form.

He studied with Russian ballet dancers for some time, actually. I can see that influence in several of the movies he is in as well as in some of his choreographies for his dance company. They would perhaps LIKE to use western stage theory but often miss the mark. This is just the same as many western dancers who would perhaps LIKE to be belly dancing, but miss the mark. Egyptian performers often, (notice this does not mean always, so I won't have to listen a tirade later about how I don't notice individualism among Arabs) have a very different idea of how to use space than do westerners. If you would care to really look you can see this pretty often in looking at some of the things that Reda did. I spent 7 years working in theatre and one of the things that happens is that somehow covering a lot of horizontal space in dance often means that Egyptian works can appear entirely too .... busy.... or something, if we consider their use of stage space from a strictly western point of view. However, in the Egyptian view, it is how space should be used. You get this same effect in..... what is it called? Red Tents or Black Tents or something like that?? I think it was a Lebanese production.

Quote:

Personally I do not find Farida's dancing insipid, atrocious, uninspiring, or at all as unpleasant as you apparently do. But they are not doing ballet, and they are not doing Raqs Sharqi, and once we get over that we can appreciate their work for what it is -- western-inspired theatrical dance. I find Reda Troupe's work very on-par with the choreography and staging of Western and Soviet work at the time.

I've come to realize that no matter what I say, you will find a way to find fault with it or say the opposite. I do not find ALL of Farida Fahmi's work to be insipid, and never said I did. You say you have ALL of Reda's video material that was available in the 90s. Do you have Muwashahat? These are clearly ballet inspired works starring Farida Fahmi and choregraphed by Reda. And if you find that stuff not insipid, then I truly need to reevaluate my opinion of your dance savvy.

Quote:

Incorporating ballet TECHNIQUE or western choreographic and staging theory does not make one's company a ballet company. The simple idea of pointing one's feet to extend the visual line of the leg is a concept from ballet that has been embraced by many modern Egyptian dancers. (Although in other cultures a pointed foot can be a visual symbol of vulnerability or femininity, or even youth.)

Who said Reda had a ballet company? I didn't. But, whether you are willing to admit it or not, Reda and Fahmi did some ballet inspired works. I costumed for Leonard Fowler for some time. You may not know who he is but a lot of people in the world of ballet recognize his name immediately. In costuming for him or any other dance performance producer, I had to learn how to look at what they were trying to accomplish. I am not a ballerina, but I have worked around them and do have some small understanding of what makes a work ballet.... and how to enhance it with costume. I know this will be very difficult for you, but you might try hearing me when I tell you that Muwashahat takes its cue from ballet.

Quote:

Having ballet classes is not a guarantor that the dance student will be a good dancer, but NOR is it as simple as "Nagwa Fouad had ballet and I don't like her." I personally DO like her, so then, in counterpoint, early ballet training made her a good dancer. (???) whatever.

Nobody except you decided I meant anything that WAS that simple.

Quote:

As for the schools - while I realize in Cairo, the RAD have been there for some time (but I still have no evidence there were dance schools of any sort before 1930 -- and I'm still looking so if you have it, please forward!) but Cairo is Cairo. I'm going by what I was told, and that is that in non-urban areas, dance schools did not exist until fairly recently.

And of course you would not want to listen to Jodette about Badia Masabni's school. What would she know, having been there? I am not sure whether or not it was before 1930, but I do know she had to train her dancers somewhere, whether it was a formal or informal school.

Quote:

This is, again, no different from America, where you can find dance class of ANY sort in Chicago, New York, Miami, LA, etc. But I have to drive for 3 hours to find an Irish dance class, and the closest modern dance company to me is still 2.5 hours away. So it's not like there's one on every corner out here.

I have no idea what this is about.

Aziyade · 08-12-2008, 03:06 PM

Sigh. A'isha, at some point you decided I was somehow "against" you and had to disagree with you on everything, despite us having lengthy conversations in the past both here, through email, and on the MEDance list. I see little point in posting "I agree" for everything I agree with -- and this goes for ALL the members here. I disagree with you on a lot of things. It's what USED to make online conversations so interesting.

No, I do not find Reda Troupe or Farida "insipid" -- in its historical context. I find it no more or less ridiculous than Busby Berkeley's water ballets or vaudeville "toe tapping." It's a product of its time. Personally I don't care WHAT you think of my dance knowledge or my dance "savvy" -- I am confident in my own skills and knowledge and don't need your approval.

If you were to READ my posts, you would realize that I was speaking specifically about Badia Masabni's Casino Opera "school" (which I quoted earlier) when I made mention of no evidence of dance schools in Egypt before the 30s -- before hers.

If you feel that I'm not listening to you, or that I'm not reading your posts, then perhaps it would be best if you simply clicked the "ignore user" button, rather than replying directly or indirectly to anything I post?

Aziyade · 08-12-2008, 03:17 PM

Where's the reverse imperialism thread? I want in on that one.

Aisha Azar · 08-12-2008, 03:22 PM

At some point, you have stopped listening except to hear what you think is something you can somehow disagree with. You disagree with me even when you are trying to agree.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Aziyade

Sigh. A'isha, at some point you decided I was somehow "against" you and had to disagree with you on everything, despite us having lengthy conversations in the past both here, through email, and on the MEDance list. I see little point in posting "I agree" for everything I agree with -- and this goes for ALL the members here. I disagree with you on a lot of things. It's what USED to make online conversations so interesting.

My dear, I call bullshit on that statement above. I see you agree often and long with many dancers...

Quote:

No, I do not find Reda Troupe or Farida "insipid" -- in its historical context. I find it no more or less ridiculous than Busby Berkeley's water ballets or vaudeville "toe tapping." It's a product of its time. Personally I don't care WHAT you think of my dance knowledge or my dance "savvy" -- I am confident in my own skills and knowledge and don't need your approval.

I am sure you do not need or want my approval. At the same time, I will ask you again. Have you actual;y seen the video "Muwashahat"? If you have and do not think its insipid, then I repeat that I will need to reevaluate my opinion of your dance savvy, whether or not that means anything to you.

Quote:

If you were to READ my posts, you would realize that I was speaking specifically about Badia Masabni's Casino Opera "school" (which I quoted earlier) when I made mention of no evidence of dance schools in Egypt before the 30s -- before hers.

And if you were to read your posts, you would realize that you did not specify a time or point out that you meant poor little Egyptian girls in a certain era. . Even Caroline saw this and said something abut girls taking ballet in Egypt today. Would you like to say something in a similar tone to her about misreading you?

Quote:

If you feel that I'm not listening to you, or that I'm not reading your posts, then perhaps it would be best if you simply clicked the "ignore user" button, rather than replying directly or indirectly to anything I post?

Of perhaps if you could reply without all the snide little implications, we could have an adult and civil conversation? All of the little asides like "Sigh", or purposely and directly implying that I see ALL of Fahmi's work as "unpleasant" when I said no such thing,do not impress me with how hard you are trying to understand me. Perhaps it you could knock it off and respond without the oh so patient tone. It takes a lot of work for me to overlook all that any more and I find myself responding in kind far more often than I would like to.

Aziyade · 08-12-2008, 04:02 PM

Click ignore user. I won't waste your time or mine any longer.

Aisha Azar · 08-12-2008, 07:49 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Aziyade

Click ignore user. I won't waste your time or mine any longer.

Way better than trying to come to some sort of amicable solution while that is still possible, I guess.

08-10-2008, 12:56 PM	#111 (permalink)
Aniseteph V.I.P. Join Date: Jul 2006 Location: Sussex, England Posts: 1,712	Baladi as urban folk agrees with what I've read elsewhere, but I thought shaabi was the streety modern urban thing that Hakim is too middle class to pull off quite right. In defence of my ignorance I am too old to be hip and down with the kids even in my own culture.

08-10-2008, 04:36 PM	#113 (permalink)
Aniseteph V.I.P. Join Date: Jul 2006 Location: Sussex, England Posts: 1,712	Thanks A'isha, that makes sense. Beledi is of the country, shaabi of the people. And all accompanying shades of meaning depending on usage.

08-12-2008, 03:06 PM	#116 (permalink)
Aziyade V.I.P. Join Date: Jul 2006 Location: Cornfields of Evansville Indiana. Posts: 1,049	Sigh. A'isha, at some point you decided I was somehow "against" you and had to disagree with you on everything, despite us having lengthy conversations in the past both here, through email, and on the MEDance list. I see little point in posting "I agree" for everything I agree with -- and this goes for ALL the members here. I disagree with you on a lot of things. It's what USED to make online conversations so interesting. No, I do not find Reda Troupe or Farida "insipid" -- in its historical context. I find it no more or less ridiculous than Busby Berkeley's water ballets or vaudeville "toe tapping." It's a product of its time. Personally I don't care WHAT you think of my dance knowledge or my dance "savvy" -- I am confident in my own skills and knowledge and don't need your approval. If you were to READ my posts, you would realize that I was speaking specifically about Badia Masabni's Casino Opera "school" (which I quoted earlier) when I made mention of no evidence of dance schools in Egypt before the 30s -- before hers. If you feel that I'm not listening to you, or that I'm not reading your posts, then perhaps it would be best if you simply clicked the "ignore user" button, rather than replying directly or indirectly to anything I post?

08-12-2008, 03:17 PM	#117 (permalink)
Aziyade V.I.P. Join Date: Jul 2006 Location: Cornfields of Evansville Indiana. Posts: 1,049	Where's the reverse imperialism thread? I want in on that one.

08-12-2008, 04:02 PM	#119 (permalink)
Aziyade V.I.P. Join Date: Jul 2006 Location: Cornfields of Evansville Indiana. Posts: 1,049	Click ignore user. I won't waste your time or mine any longer.