FCBD "Who We Are" - Page 4

Shanazel · 08-08-2008, 11:15 PM

Pinheads and shower caps unite! Thanks for the sympathy and empathy.

Mosaic · 08-09-2008, 04:31 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Shanazel

I adore the tassles and turbans and tattoos and the whole glorious earthy nine yards of tribal. I love to watch good tribal performed and always have the desire to leap up and participate, but alas, I'd merely make an old-style AmCab fool of myself if I did so. On me, a turban looks like an elaborate shower cap

.

I also adore tassels/turbans/tattoos and the whole glorious nine yards of it as you so very eloquently put it! Unfortunately the nearest class, is some distance from where I live. Mind you I wouldn't give up my BD classes, but would just add to what I already do

~Mosaic

Farasha Hanem · 08-09-2008, 07:51 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Aziyade

Having a marked arch in the upper or lower back doesn't necessarily entail a problem. The goal in healthy posture is to get a NEUTRAL spine, which is a balance between the 12 (cervical and lumbar) vertebrae with the 12 thoracic vertebrae.

If the thoracic (kyphotic) curve is large, then the other (lordotic) curve can also be large, without necessarily causing an imbalance. The pelvis seems to be the determiner here. If the lumbar spine is aligned in relation to the pelvis, and the pelvis is balanced in relation to the legs, then you probably have what would be considered a neutral spinal position.

Of course, if you have a big butt, it can make the lordotic curve look more extreme than it is

A lot "swayback" people experience pain in the low back when doing a weight-bearing exercise like walking. If you don't have pain, and you don't have a corresponding weakness in the abs, you may not have a problem being "swayback."

Also, I'm no Tribal expert, but I fail to see how any of the movements Carolena taught on her video have anything to do with being "supported" by the upper back arch. The only place where I can see this having a physical effect would be in spinning, because the arched spine creates a center of gravity that is higher and more forward than a regular neutral posture, and I can see it throwing you off if you aren't used to it. Also, since the back is already contracted, you may have to work harder to get a "chest lift."

If you're arching the upper back and you can't do hip work without feeling it pull in the low back, then you're doing the arch wrong.

Thank you for the info, Aziyade; I appreciate it .

I'm no expert on human physiology, but I do remember studying the different spinal regions in school, so what you said makes sense. I just need to pull out my encyclopedia again to refresh my memory. The only times I have lower back pain is if I work too hard (especially at my job; lots of lifting and working on freight), or sit too long, especially in an uncomfortable place or position (like at church).

Aziyade · 08-12-2008, 02:29 PM

I have NO idea what you're saying here -- none of this makes sense.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Aisha Azar

That's right, the movements are not supported by the back, or the pelvis, or any other part of the body, as is natural in dance which is going to torque the spine in the way that some belly dance movement does.

Again, this makes no sense. The erector spinae can contract independently of one another. The human body was designed/evolved whatever to make the movements that we make -- including twisting around the spinal axis.

Flamenco, Character in ballet, Ghawazee -- they all use the upper back arch. There isn't any physical reason why belly dancers of all sorts can't use it -- but it does change the visual aesthetic.

Quote:

The posture is an exaggeration for most people and therefore creates tension in all kinds of places.

CORRECT posture is an exaggeration for most people.

This is why a lot of people experience back pain or discomfort after their first weight-training session, or their first class in any physical activity requiring correct aligned posture. The tension is caused by physical weakness in the abdominals, usually, and not because we're standing up straight, or arching the upper back.

Quote:

It does not take a "wrong" sort of arching of the upper back to do this, as many tribal dancers can tell you, I have had them come to my class complaining about backache, etc, and how difficult the posture is on them.

I would hazard a guess and say that the REAL cause of the discomfort is them trying to do those backbends or laybacks the wrong way, or trying to take them too far too quickly. I've seen this in Louisville -- even dancers who should know better want to push it and get just a little more than they should. Plus, that's the immediate FLASH cool thing about tribal etc styles -- those crazy backbends and drops! Everybody's got to try them (as I raise even my guilty hand.) Of course, students will never ADMIT they hurt themselves doing an "advanced" movement.

Quote:

The upper arch pulls energy and muscles into the upper body, making it less grounded through the pelvis, taking support away from the pelvis and all movement that come from that region of the body.

I think I see what you're trying to say, but the idea of groundedness is about 75% visualization. You can carry the center of gravity (metaphorically speaking) in more than one place. You can split it between the sternum and the upper leg, or the point right above your breasts and the pelvis, or where ever you want to visually "place" your weight.

In this case, I can agree that VISUALLY, the arched spine will draw some "visual energy" or attention away from hipwork, since it is such a dynamic pose. But it's not PHYSICALLY doing anything. The important muscle groups that help "support" the pelvis, as you put it, are the "core" muscles in the lumbo-pelvic-hip complex, not the upper back.

Quote:

Standing that way does not cause a "pull" in the lower back. It causes a cramp. If you don't believe me try standing that way for awhile.

I have often, and I do often. I encourage my students to strengthen the muscles that govern "good posture" and once you've done that, it is no longer so fatiguing to the muscles to maintain a fairly constant contracted state. I can give you some specific exercises for that, if you like.

to Sharon --

What's the diff between your arched posture and the way Carolena teaches it?

TribalDancer · 08-12-2008, 06:35 PM

Hey Aziyade,
We just don't do it to the degree they do. The same muscles are used, the same kind of posture is achieved, but ours is less "exaggerated". But otherwise the *way* we teach it is the same.

Aziyade · 08-12-2008, 06:46 PM

Cool, thanks

For some reason I keep thinking Kajira taught her posture with a different weight placement, like maybe the hips were more forward, but it's been ages since I saw her video, so I could be misremembering.
Was she one of Carolena's students, do you know?

TribalDancer · 08-13-2008, 12:44 AM

Last I saw, Kajira taught it the same way.

Kajira's did study with Carolena, but to what degree has been debated. Kajira makes it sound like it was consistently over a longer period of time, and Carolena says it was sporadically over a short period of time. Somewhere in between maybe? But I find Kajira's style to be much closer to Gypsy Caravan's style than ATS, though Kajira firecely clings to the ATS moniker. It draws from a wider range of movement and stylizations, and uses both right and left sides--two fundamental differences from ATS right there.

jenc · 08-16-2008, 08:06 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Aziyade

I have often, and I do often. I encourage my students to strengthen the muscles that govern "good posture" and once you've done that, it is no longer so fatiguing to the muscles to maintain a fairly constant contracted state. I can give you some specific exercises for that, if you like.

I would very much like exercises to improve my posture. I feel that the best thing I could do for my dance right now is work on my posture - but I keep forgetting to. Specific exercises would help

08-08-2008, 11:15 PM	#31 (permalink)
Shanazel Moderator Join Date: Jul 2006 Location: Rocky Mountains USA Posts: 4,687	Pinheads and shower caps unite! Thanks for the sympathy and empathy.

08-12-2008, 06:35 PM	#35 (permalink)
TribalDancer Moderator Join Date: Jul 2006 Location: Seattle, WA Posts: 313	Hey Aziyade, We just don't do it to the degree they do. The same muscles are used, the same kind of posture is achieved, but ours is less "exaggerated". But otherwise the way we teach it is the same.

08-12-2008, 06:46 PM	#36 (permalink)
Aziyade V.I.P. Join Date: Jul 2006 Location: Cornfields of Evansville Indiana. Posts: 1,049	Cool, thanks For some reason I keep thinking Kajira taught her posture with a different weight placement, like maybe the hips were more forward, but it's been ages since I saw her video, so I could be misremembering. Was she one of Carolena's students, do you know?

08-13-2008, 12:44 AM	#37 (permalink)
TribalDancer Moderator Join Date: Jul 2006 Location: Seattle, WA Posts: 313	Last I saw, Kajira taught it the same way. Kajira's did study with Carolena, but to what degree has been debated. Kajira makes it sound like it was consistently over a longer period of time, and Carolena says it was sporadically over a short period of time. Somewhere in between maybe? But I find Kajira's style to be much closer to Gypsy Caravan's style than ATS, though Kajira firecely clings to the ATS moniker. It draws from a wider range of movement and stylizations, and uses both right and left sides--two fundamental differences from ATS right there.