What's the difference between 'classical' Egyptian and 'modern' Egyptian? - Page 2

Outi · 04-28-2008, 04:57 PM

A'isha, me too! Did you have good time and when will you be back?

I agree with you A'isha what you said for the times and different dancers. Although now there much more sharp movements used as the dancing and even the music for dancing is played differently. Before melody was the main key, now the drummers have much bigger role for making the show.

My comment was to emphasise that the abs are not used only for these sharp stuff but also all the soft movements. In Egyptian style they are not external part of the dance, not single movement, but something more fundamental, used in everywhere.

Kashmir · 04-28-2008, 10:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by adiemus

hah! now I did wonder about that Kashmir!!
I thought ab work was more popular amongst American dancers - I can't say I've seen belly rolls and flutters nearly as often amongst Egyptian dancers - but I am only viewing via YouTube...

No - not rolls and flutters - but rather movements initiated by the abs - such as a contraction that pulls the leg off the ground.

Aisha Azar · 04-29-2008, 11:36 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Outi

A'isha, me too! Did you have good time and when will you be back?

I agree with you A'isha what you said for the times and different dancers. Although now there much more sharp movements used as the dancing and even the music for dancing is played differently. Before melody was the main key, now the drummers have much bigger role for making the show.

My comment was to emphasise that the abs are not used only for these sharp stuff but also all the soft movements. In Egyptian style they are not external part of the dance, not single movement, but something more fundamental, used in everywhere.

Dear Outi,
I had an amazing time. Next time I will go earlier in the year because the bugs loved me in Egypt and I have many bites from them to remind me of my trip.
What you say about music was what I was also saying. The fashion in music, costuming and what movement are prevalent may change, but the essence and feeling of the dance seems to be eternal. As you say, it is not the external stuff that makes it the Dance, but something at its heart!
Regards,
A'isha

adiemus · 04-29-2008, 07:09 PM

A'isha, I don't think it's the costuming and music - although the music influences the dance - looking at what people here are saying, and reviewing some of the videos, it seems to be more than that. I think it's that 'modern' seems more of a 'performance', although having said that, the majority of YouTube footage of earlier dancers is from movies, and I wonder how choreographed their work is.

One distinction I can see is something you've all alluded to - the abdominal work is less separated or isolated from the whole body movement, this integration of movement is a feature of all the movements of the Egyptian-style dancers compared with a more western style. It seems like the isolations in western dance are there to draw attention to THAT movement and part of the body, while the Egyptian older style especially seems instead to flow from that part of the body to emphasise the music. Wish I could explain this better!!

Aisha Azar · 04-29-2008, 07:27 PM

Dear Adiemus,

Quote:

Originally Posted by adiemus

A'isha, I don't think it's the costuming and music - although the music influences the dance - looking at what people here are saying, and reviewing some of the videos, it seems to be more than that. I think it's that 'modern' seems more of a 'performance', although having said that, the majority of YouTube footage of earlier dancers is from movies, and I wonder how choreographed their work is.

A'isha writes- I think that is true when it comes to the more westernized dancers, but not when we look at the Egyptians. While they all have their own style, we can definitely see abdominal support in just about all good Egyptian dancers, from Tahia Carioca onward, and sharp, clean movements in many of them, including whereas in the west, it is a new thing. I do not see the newer dancers as being more in "performance"mode than say Nagwa Fouad or Samia Gamal, Lynn and Lyss, or any of the other movie dancers. The dance is and has always been about performance. And dance wise, the movement vocabulary stays abut the same, with different dancers utilizing it in different ways. Soheir Zaki always made far sharper movements than many of her contemporaries. So did Naima Akef. Aza Sherif moved bigger, Nadia Hamdi was more Beledi in her approach, Fifi hardly ever did anything truly sharp, and Randa uses sharp and soft techniques, as does Dina. Dandash uses everyone's stuff on purpose!!

O

Quote:

ne distinction I can see is something you've all alluded to - the abdominal work is less separated or isolated from the whole body movement, this integration of movement is a feature of all the movements of the Egyptian-style dancers compared with a more western style. It seems like the isolations in western dance are there to draw attention to THAT movement and part of the body, while the Egyptian older style especially seems instead to flow from that part of the body to emphasise the music. Wish I could explain this better!!

I have always stated this as a huge difference between good Egyptian dance and those trying to imitate the style. When you make it all about the movements, it becomes less Egyptian by the second!! The newer Egyptian style also has this flow and a feeling that there is not just a lot of separate movements on stage, but rather instead a whole picture that is well connected to all aspects of the dance, including the music, and even especially the music. Egyptian dance, then and now, has always been more about a whole picture than about, "Look at this cool movement I can do, look at ME", as we often see in the West.
Regards,
A'isha

Kashmir · 04-29-2008, 10:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by adiemus

A'isha, I don't think it's the costuming and music - although the music influences the dance - looking at what people here are saying, and reviewing some of the videos, it seems to be more than that. I think it's that 'modern' seems more of a 'performance', although having said that, the majority of YouTube footage of earlier dancers is from movies, and I wonder how choreographed their work is.

Yes, you can put on a full skirt and bra and some Mohamad Abdul Wahab but the resulting performance may not be in the classical style. Ditto, mini skirt and bike shorts won't turn you into Dina.

One of the drawbacks from trying to learn by YouTube! Basically classical Egyptian is Golden Age ie pre 1952 - therefore basically only known through their movie clips. Some continued to dance in this style for some time. There are a number of DVD collections out there of Golden Age dancers eg Hossam's "Stars of Egypt" (TM

) and one starting with "m" - Moti? which I think has a better range of material.

Now these guys were all about "performance" - they were performing for a camera after all (and with at least choreographed entrances and exits - although some were more tightly choreographed) - so I'm not sure how Modern Egyptian is more performance orientated. If anything, you seem to get more internalized emotion - but I'm, working from videos and DVDs so the selection of pieces compared with YouTube might be very different.

Aisha Azar · 04-29-2008, 11:29 PM

Dear Kashmir,

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kashmir

Yes, you can put on a full skirt and bra and some Mohamad Abdul Wahab but the resulting performance may not be in the classical style. Ditto, mini skirt and bike shorts won't turn you into Dina.

A'isha writes- However, movement is perceived differently in different types of costume since it is meant to enhance certain aspects of movement as well as to help create the feeling and character of the dance. This is what I mean by the costuming being a large part of how we see the dance.

Quote:

One of the drawbacks from trying to learn by YouTube! Basically classical Egyptian is Golden Age ie pre 1952 - therefore basically only known through their movie clips. Some continued to dance in this style for some time. There are a number of DVD collections out there of Golden Age dancers eg Hossam's "Stars of Egypt" (TM

) and one starting with "m" - Moti? which I think has a better range of material.

A'isha writes- Absolutely, and I own some of the movies and have watched many others! I think You tube is not a good learning tool at all.

Quote:

Now these guys were all about "performance" - they were performing for a camera after all (and with at least choreographed entrances and exits - although some were more tightly choreographed) - so I'm not sure how Modern Egyptian is more performance orientated. If anything, you seem to get more internalized emotion - but I'm, working from videos and DVDs so the selection of pieces compared with YouTube might be very different.

A'isha writes- I agree and feel that the dance itself is very much about performance, then and now, as well as being about interpretation of the music and personal feeling for what one is supposed to be doing. It is all in the same package, or should be.
Regards,
A'isha

Mark_Balahadia · 05-19-2008, 03:28 AM

Just to chime in:

The old school style tended to be less percussive due to the nature of the music (with exceptions). The music was highly orchestrated, with less emphasis on the tabla.

Egyptian style has evolved along with the music. Naturally, this will continue with innovations in music including the introduction of new instruments etc.

Costuming does play an important role and again, this is tied to the evolution of the music. Obviously, the standard bedle was perfect for sweeping, graceful movements. However, the standard bedle is not as well suited for the "modern" style since it would hide a lot of the movements.

It's interesting to note that Lebanese style is still entrench in its use of the bedle (although, there are many exceptions). I think one reason is due to the Lebanese Civil War, which prematurely ended any innovation in the style until it was over in 1991.

Mara2 · 05-28-2008, 07:02 AM

Just my .02+, I completely agree with A'isha and others about the differences. Classical and modern *normally* use most of the same movements, just executed differently. The arm movements are pretty much gone these days though. If you look at some of the old clips on youtube of Nagwa, etal, you see them using the old arm movements (bits of them, as I was taught never to do the entire movement at once either), and the shoulders are always raised. You still see this (raised shoulders) in modern Egyptian dance too, but the rest of the movements aren't really there much.

Also, all the movements were usually done much larger and smoother, where as now they are tighter and faster. Then there are the costumes which have changed quite drastically. I was taught to wear harem pants with an over skirt, or two skirts (which I still prefer). Your belly was covered with your costume and/or beads too. Much less skin showing. That kind of costume isn't very good for today's Egyptian dancing though, because you can't see the tiny movement very well.

And yes, there have always been flutters and undulations. I spent hours on my back on my teacher's living room floor with a baseball bat, rolling the d*mned thing down my stomach. lol There was also lots of floorwork that you don't see nowadays either.

The music too has changed. As mentioned, it was not as percussive as it is today. It's almost like two completely different dances in many ways.

04-28-2008, 04:57 PM	#11 (permalink)
Outi Member Join Date: Jul 2006 Location: Cairo, Egypt Posts: 241	A'isha, me too! Did you have good time and when will you be back? I agree with you A'isha what you said for the times and different dancers. Although now there much more sharp movements used as the dancing and even the music for dancing is played differently. Before melody was the main key, now the drummers have much bigger role for making the show. My comment was to emphasise that the abs are not used only for these sharp stuff but also all the soft movements. In Egyptian style they are not external part of the dance, not single movement, but something more fundamental, used in everywhere. __________________ http://www.outiofcairo.com

04-29-2008, 07:09 PM	#14 (permalink)
adiemus Senior Member Join Date: Jul 2007 Location: Christchurch, New Zealand Posts: 887	A'isha, I don't think it's the costuming and music - although the music influences the dance - looking at what people here are saying, and reviewing some of the videos, it seems to be more than that. I think it's that 'modern' seems more of a 'performance', although having said that, the majority of YouTube footage of earlier dancers is from movies, and I wonder how choreographed their work is. One distinction I can see is something you've all alluded to - the abdominal work is less separated or isolated from the whole body movement, this integration of movement is a feature of all the movements of the Egyptian-style dancers compared with a more western style. It seems like the isolations in western dance are there to draw attention to THAT movement and part of the body, while the Egyptian older style especially seems instead to flow from that part of the body to emphasise the music. Wish I could explain this better!! __________________ He wahine, he taonga- Every woman is a treasure(Maori proverb)

05-19-2008, 03:28 AM	#18 (permalink)
Mark_Balahadia Member Join Date: Jul 2006 Location: Jerseystanyya Posts: 191	Just to chime in: The old school style tended to be less percussive due to the nature of the music (with exceptions). The music was highly orchestrated, with less emphasis on the tabla. Egyptian style has evolved along with the music. Naturally, this will continue with innovations in music including the introduction of new instruments etc. Costuming does play an important role and again, this is tied to the evolution of the music. Obviously, the standard bedle was perfect for sweeping, graceful movements. However, the standard bedle is not as well suited for the "modern" style since it would hide a lot of the movements. It's interesting to note that Lebanese style is still entrench in its use of the bedle (although, there are many exceptions). I think one reason is due to the Lebanese Civil War, which prematurely ended any innovation in the style until it was over in 1991. __________________ badde 3eish!!! www.markbalahadia.com

05-28-2008, 07:02 AM	#19 (permalink)
Mara2 Junior Member Join Date: Nov 2007 Location: Whidbey Island, WA Posts: 36	Just my .02+, I completely agree with A'isha and others about the differences. Classical and modern normally use most of the same movements, just executed differently. The arm movements are pretty much gone these days though. If you look at some of the old clips on youtube of Nagwa, etal, you see them using the old arm movements (bits of them, as I was taught never to do the entire movement at once either), and the shoulders are always raised. You still see this (raised shoulders) in modern Egyptian dance too, but the rest of the movements aren't really there much. Also, all the movements were usually done much larger and smoother, where as now they are tighter and faster. Then there are the costumes which have changed quite drastically. I was taught to wear harem pants with an over skirt, or two skirts (which I still prefer). Your belly was covered with your costume and/or beads too. Much less skin showing. That kind of costume isn't very good for today's Egyptian dancing though, because you can't see the tiny movement very well. And yes, there have always been flutters and undulations. I spent hours on my back on my teacher's living room floor with a baseball bat, rolling the d*mned thing down my stomach. lol There was also lots of floorwork that you don't see nowadays either. The music too has changed. As mentioned, it was not as percussive as it is today. It's almost like two completely different dances in many ways.