adiemus

I'm really curious to find out what some of the people on this forum think of veil. I know it's a well-established part of AmCab, but in Egyptian styling it's less a dance than a preliminary to a dance...
So... if I'm to choreo a dance where the veil becomes a major part of the dance, is that 'fantasy', AmCab, or something else? I'm assuming it's not Egyptian...

And while I'm particularly interested in veil at the moment, what about swords, trays, candles (not on a headdress), or any other props (poodles anyone?)...?
Do these fit into 'traditional', 'AmCab', or 'Fantasy'? Zills I think remain an instrument, not a prop so I'm leaving them out of the discussion at this stage.

And, final addendum, if veil is 'fantasy' or 'AmCab', does this mean that only on-traditional music or fusion music is appropriate?
The reason this came up for me is someone said that Natacha Atlas' song Ezzay is not really for 'authentic' (not sure if exactly the word used) bellydance, but good for improv or fantasy - and I would love to see a veil choreo to it!!

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janaki

Hi Adiemus,

My style is egyptian and I use veil not like a prop but more like an extension to my costume. Hope this makes sense. I use it in oriental routine for the malfouf /intro section. Other than some classical and folk songs, IMO you can use any piece of music that is suitable for veil. I have seen beautiful veil routines to egyptian classics like zeina and azeeza. You won't see an egyptian dancers do the whole dance with a veil though. I am sure some of the Amcab dancers in this forum may answer your question properly. If I am presenting a long routine I also use a veil and balancing routine. I choose the music that is different to tradtional music for these pieces. I personally like slow chiftetelli or arabic/new agey fusion style for veil and balancing.

Poodles!!! LOL, how cute is that, especially if the poodle can have the matching costume!!!

adiemus

Now my eyes are popping out of my head!!! Hmmm, do they have to bark in time with the domtek?!!

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Salome

From what I have learned Egyptian style veil work began with Samia Gamal. She was working with a famous Russian ballet dancer, Ivanova, who instructed Samia to hold a piece of fabric as a way to improve her arm carriage. That's the rumor anyway. Samia being one of the most famous and beloved Egyptian dance stars - was emulated by others and it become something of a trend. Though anyone who has seen the Egyptian style of veil work would concur that there are light years of difference between it and American Oriental veil work. The veil, if it is used at all, is held away from the body, used for a short time in a very simple fashion, usually during the entrance, the music is fast and it's discarded quickly and unceremoniously after perhaps some walking, spins and "walkarounds". The difference in the veils itself are evident as to their use. The Egyptian veils tend to be a wee bit shorter, and also edged in beads, often there is decorative work on the veil itself (which does not particularly lend itself to American Oriental veil work). It seems though that many more American dancers lately labeling themselves as Egyptian stylists use the silks and use them much longer though not necessarily more intricately (not a put down). And I just realized I'm rambling and that it doesn't really pertain to what you were asking, sorry!

What I would like to hear about on this subject is the OLD school Turkish Oriental (not roman) and veil work. Because the clips I've seen of the grand dames like Nesrin, Banu and Sema etc. use veil not like the Arabs but more like the Americans. Given the dominent Turkish influence of the American style at least in the early days... would lead one to wonder... I'd love to hear about veil work from our Turkish experts!

Most often what I choose as music for my veil section is Amarabic music. Pieces from John Belizekijan, George Abdo, Sirocco, Brothers of the Baladi, Eddie Kochak, Joseph Pusey...

Hey, I hear Naima Akef liked to use her parrot during her goblet routine, lol.

One of the things I see as being paramount to the authentic prop discussion is being absolutely crystal clear about the dance + prop in question. I think sometimes we tend to lump it all toghether as someone was saying recently in another thread. If the prop is used somewhere in some dance in the Middle East that doesn't make it authentic to Oriental dance. Votive candles (not shemadan)? Not authentic. Sword in Oriental dance? Very hot topic there and torn views. According to my research, no sword is not authentic to Oriental dance. There are pretty clear views as far as gender roles go... the weaponry used in various folk dances is invariably wielded by men in all their macho glory, be it an AK 47, a sword, a staff... Tray? there is the tea tray dance of Morocco - totally bereft of knowledge on that one - but since I've been told that Morocco is not a country where Oriental dance is indigenous then I would guess no not to Oriental dance. Tarik, where are you? You are the resident tray guru. Goblets? Yes, Assyrians and I'm told Egyptians too have used balancing on glasses during Oriental dance for some time. Cane? Yes. Isis wings? No. Fans? No. Snakes? No.

adiemus

I have opened up a can of worms huh?!! LOL
I didn't include cane because that's a different form of dance, hadn't heard of goblets... must rush to YouTube for a peek! Votive candles I hope not, although I have seen some lovely 'fantasy' dances with them - shemadan yes definitely.
Please let's not have AK47's!!! Would compete with the drummers...!
So in AmCab would you always have a programme that included veil? with a different style of music?
The style of veil I've seen in Egyptian was almost like a covering that wasn't really danced with, more just an addendum that gets put down before the 'real' action gets going...I quite like the veil but I'm not sure whether to pursue learning more just because I like it, or whether I'm going to trespass on some unwritten 'rule' about whether it's appropriate in more Egyptian styled dance. I love the Egyptian style dance, it's so effortless and minimilistic and would love to emulate it.

Poodles in costume - Janaki you make me laugh!! Have seen poodles dyed to match their owners' hair....!!

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Salome

What is traditional to the American Oriental routine structure is a fast song to open, zills a must! The first song you wear your veil (like in my video - or in an alternate wrap...), second song is the veil song. This is a slow piece, the emotional mood of the music can vary. Often the ney, violin, but sometimes kanun, saz or oud is the fore instrument. The veil is used throughout the entire song or at lest 3/4's. The next piece is usually the floorwork segment to a slow to medium upbeat chifti. In lieu of floorwork this may be a prop segment like sword, (goblets for me) or just a fun playful chifti. The next segment is a shorter fast song building up to the 5th section the drum solo and lastly the finale and exit where we often use a 9/8.

American Oriental has many faces, just like Egyptian style where you have the more old school or classic and the more contemporary version. The old school American style is closer to its Turkish influence in routine structure, costume, music choice, movement execution and energy while the modern is all over the map with Indian, Spanish, fantasy.... but generally with more of an American's interpretaion of Egyptian.

Reen.Blom

Thank you Salome, It was very infrormative!!!!

May I have a jack russel instead?

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nightdancer

Actually, it was an M-16. I can and have shimmied while wearing 50 pounds of gear, in combat boots. I have to confess that an Army Combat Uniform does not inspire the mystery and sensuality that our silks and shinies do, but it does keep the bugs out better.

To keep it on topic, I want to make sure that I understand.

Yes, but no, dependent on the manner in which it is being used. Inside that, the style of the veil is different as well.

Egyptian=accent peice, something to add another layer to the peice.
Amcab/other=Center of the dance itself.

Is that right? Salome, is the video you are speaking of on Youtube? I'm off to go search but wanted to ask.

adiemus

M-16??!!! Combat boots? you must be dedicated (or addicted)...
Egyptian=accent peice, something to add another layer to the peice.
Amcab/other=Center of the dance itself. - this is what I understood too.
I didn't realise there was such a strong structure in place for a dance routine in AmCab - it does give a lot of options and shows the dancer's versatility...
So back to one of my original questions: for some of the commentators on this forum, veil would be more of a 'fantasy' item and maybe should be identified as such? A'isha would you care to comment?
I'm really curious, because on this forum there has been such debate about the authenticity of dance yet the veil seems ubiquitous!

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nightdancer

lol no. Just a soldier who was trying to keep a road march from being total and utter tedium.