Veil - is it really belly dance? - Page 5

Yasmine Bint Al Nubia · 01-16-2008, 09:06 PM

Hello Everyone, I think veils are an 'authentic' part of Oriental dance, as I agree with Aisha's interpretation. The evocative nature of dancing with a veil is well-suited for this dance style. In no other dance style will you see advanced uses of swirling fabric used as an extension of the dance, esp. in American Oriental.
Yasmine

Andrea Deagon · 01-20-2008, 04:50 AM

I used to love veil dancing when I first started dancing as a teenager in the 1970's. I didn't know anything about its authenticity or lack of it (no one seemed to) but I loved the emotionality of it. It seemed to me that the veil was an aid in expressing my feelings and getting them out into the world beyond my body.

Like everyone then, I came on stage with the veil wrapped and unwrapped it in the second, slow part of the dance. For some dancers this was rather mechanical, for others it was seductive, for others it was a technical feat -- magic! The veil is free! I think for some dancers the unveiling had a symbolic sense of getting to the heart of the matter, getting more real, removing the film that stood between you and the audience in the opening piece, whose high energy meant you presented a rather one-dimensional persona to the audience at first. With the veilwork, you could add complexity to your dancing persona, and even bring your true self into it. I think that's what veilwork did for me.

Later, as I started learning more Egyptian, I realized that the way I had used the veil to release feeling and emotion, and communicate feeling and multi-dimensional persona to the audience, could be accomplished through the body itself, without the intervening fabric. I sort of lost interest in the veil.

Then in the late 80's-early 90's I began studying seriously with Ibrahim (Bobby) Farrah, and learned yet another use of the veil. Bobby tended toward silk chiffon veils, and the filminess and responsiveness of this fabric basically spoiled me for anything else. With this kind of veil, the standard moves (the ones you learn in belly dance 101, that all too often look contrived) may or may not work. If they work, they look different. The lightness of the fabric means that you have to relate to it in a different way.

Bobby's veil choreographies were more Egyptian style in that they were incorporated into an opening piece, but they were complex and lovely and there were no "standard" moves. It was the veil as the extension of the soul, which is, in a way, what I had started out seeking in my veil work -- it was just that Bobby's veil choreography was so much more insightful than what I had learned way back when. I am really sad that Bobby's premature death left the dance world without the power of his artistic vision in the mix of modern belly dance. I don't see much veilwork like his any more.

Salome · 01-27-2008, 07:39 AM

Moderator post... The topics that came up regarding animals and other props now has its own thread here http://forum.orientaldancer.net/danc...als-dance.html

Aziyade · 01-30-2008, 04:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Andrea Deagon

I am really sad that Bobby's premature death left the dance world without the power of his artistic vision in the mix of modern belly dance. I don't see much veilwork like his any more.

If you're talking about dancing of a sort that can be seen on "A Journey" then I too am sad that we're not seeing this.

Are there any of his students still teaching who are promoting this vision? I see photos of Elena Lentini doing different things with veil, but I've never seen a recent performance of her so I don't know exactly what I'm looking at.

Maybe it's time to bring back "Bobby Farrah style." ?? I've been to workshops with master teachers who speak very fondly of him as both an artist and a person. I wish I could have known him. Suhaila said her mom simply adored him, and was crushed when he passed away.

belly_dancer · 01-30-2008, 08:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Andrea Deagon

I used to love veil dancing when I first started dancing as a teenager in the 1970's. I didn't know anything about its authenticity or lack of it (no one seemed to) but I loved the emotionality of it. It seemed to me that the veil was an aid in expressing my feelings and getting them out into the world beyond my body.

Like everyone then, I came on stage with the veil wrapped and unwrapped it in the second, slow part of the dance. For some dancers this was rather mechanical, for others it was seductive, for others it was a technical feat -- magic! The veil is free! I think for some dancers the unveiling had a symbolic sense of getting to the heart of the matter, getting more real, removing the film that stood between you and the audience in the opening piece, whose high energy meant you presented a rather one-dimensional persona to the audience at first. With the veilwork, you could add complexity to your dancing persona, and even bring your true self into it. I think that's what veilwork did for me.

Later, as I started learning more Egyptian, I realized that the way I had used the veil to release feeling and emotion, and communicate feeling and multi-dimensional persona to the audience, could be accomplished through the body itself, without the intervening fabric. I sort of lost interest in the veil.

Then in the late 80's-early 90's I began studying seriously with Ibrahim (Bobby) Farrah, and learned yet another use of the veil. Bobby tended toward silk chiffon veils, and the filminess and responsiveness of this fabric basically spoiled me for anything else. With this kind of veil, the standard moves (the ones you learn in belly dance 101, that all too often look contrived) may or may not work. If they work, they look different. The lightness of the fabric means that you have to relate to it in a different way.

Bobby's veil choreographies were more Egyptian style in that they were incorporated into an opening piece, but they were complex and lovely and there were no "standard" moves. It was the veil as the extension of the soul, which is, in a way, what I had started out seeking in my veil work -- it was just that Bobby's veil choreography was so much more insightful than what I had learned way back when. I am really sad that Bobby's premature death left the dance world without the power of his artistic vision in the mix of modern belly dance. I don't see much veilwork like his any more.

have you seen any video examples, of the style you are talking about, that you could refer us to so we can see exactly what you are talking about (think I know... but a video is worth 1000's of words!!!!)

georgina · 08-28-2008, 01:51 PM

Jane · 08-28-2008, 04:52 PM

My first teacher, who started dancing in 1974, tells her students that AmCab developed veil into it's own unique style because it was a way to hold the audiences attention through the slow music section of the seven part routine. She also said it helped stretch the dance vocabulary because there was not the availability of lessons and videos like we have today. It started as filler I guess

Can anyone confirm this?

Bellydance Oz · 08-29-2008, 04:16 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by janaki

I love to spin with the veil, a series of them. But I don't like to see too much of it. I personally don't like when veil takes over the dancer and her dance.

Me too. All too often, dancers use the veil as a lazy way to fill up the music and avoid doing proper choreography. One of two things happen - either the dancer wafts around the stage doing a few runs here and a few spins there (which is nice for about 30 seconds then gets boring) or she flails her arms around doing all kinds of intricate things with the veil (which I'm sure are very difficult but just look frantic).

For me, the best use of the veil is as part of a brief entrance. The idea of giving the veil to a member of the audience is a fabulous one - though given the price of veils here in Oz, it would also be an expensive one!

It hadn't occurred to me that the veil might not be "authentic". Interesting discussion!

Kashmir · 08-29-2008, 05:07 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jane

My first teacher, who started dancing in 1974, tells her students that AmCab developed veil into it's own unique style because it was a way to hold the audiences attention through the slow music section of the seven part routine. She also said it helped stretch the dance vocabulary because there was not the availability of lessons and videos like we have today. It started as filler I guess

Can anyone confirm this?

Well as the seven part routine was created in the US, you'd have to ask why they added a veil section in the music if they didn't like it.

I heard it was added either to fill in time or because the dancers assumed if they were belly dancing there had to be veils - Salome and all that. (As initially the audience was Middle Eastern it can't have been to slot into their fantasies. Anyone know if veil was done in the early ME restaurants and clubs in the US?)

Jane · 08-29-2008, 05:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kashmir

Well as the seven part routine was created in the US, you'd have to ask why they added a veil section in the music if they didn't like it.

Now I'm just guessing

: I think the dancers and the audience liked veil, they just liked it with extra gimmicks. The American audience expected to see it anyway, and it was something to do during the slow music. Veil tricks could have come about to help fill up the time in the slower song.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kashmir

I heard it was added either to fill in time or because the dancers assumed if they were belly dancing there had to be veils - Salome and all that. (As initially the audience was Middle Eastern it can't have been to slot into their fantasies. Anyone know if veil was done in the early ME restaurants and clubs in the US?)

No theories on that one.

01-16-2008, 09:06 PM	#41 (permalink)
Yasmine Bint Al Nubia V.I.P. Join Date: Jul 2006 Location: Akron, Ohio Posts: 1,171	Hello Everyone, I think veils are an 'authentic' part of Oriental dance, as I agree with Aisha's interpretation. The evocative nature of dancing with a veil is well-suited for this dance style. In no other dance style will you see advanced uses of swirling fabric used as an extension of the dance, esp. in American Oriental. Yasmine __________________ www.visionsofthenile.com

01-20-2008, 04:50 AM	#42 (permalink)
Andrea Deagon Member Join Date: Apr 2007 Location: Wilmington, NC Posts: 176	I used to love veil dancing when I first started dancing as a teenager in the 1970's. I didn't know anything about its authenticity or lack of it (no one seemed to) but I loved the emotionality of it. It seemed to me that the veil was an aid in expressing my feelings and getting them out into the world beyond my body. Like everyone then, I came on stage with the veil wrapped and unwrapped it in the second, slow part of the dance. For some dancers this was rather mechanical, for others it was seductive, for others it was a technical feat -- magic! The veil is free! I think for some dancers the unveiling had a symbolic sense of getting to the heart of the matter, getting more real, removing the film that stood between you and the audience in the opening piece, whose high energy meant you presented a rather one-dimensional persona to the audience at first. With the veilwork, you could add complexity to your dancing persona, and even bring your true self into it. I think that's what veilwork did for me. Later, as I started learning more Egyptian, I realized that the way I had used the veil to release feeling and emotion, and communicate feeling and multi-dimensional persona to the audience, could be accomplished through the body itself, without the intervening fabric. I sort of lost interest in the veil. Then in the late 80's-early 90's I began studying seriously with Ibrahim (Bobby) Farrah, and learned yet another use of the veil. Bobby tended toward silk chiffon veils, and the filminess and responsiveness of this fabric basically spoiled me for anything else. With this kind of veil, the standard moves (the ones you learn in belly dance 101, that all too often look contrived) may or may not work. If they work, they look different. The lightness of the fabric means that you have to relate to it in a different way. Bobby's veil choreographies were more Egyptian style in that they were incorporated into an opening piece, but they were complex and lovely and there were no "standard" moves. It was the veil as the extension of the soul, which is, in a way, what I had started out seeking in my veil work -- it was just that Bobby's veil choreography was so much more insightful than what I had learned way back when. I am really sad that Bobby's premature death left the dance world without the power of his artistic vision in the mix of modern belly dance. I don't see much veilwork like his any more. __________________ "I am not contradictory, I am dispersed." (Roland Barthes)

08-28-2008, 01:51 PM	#46 (permalink)
georgina Junior Member Join Date: May 2007 Posts: 4	Veil dance in México

01-27-2008, 07:39 AM	#43 (permalink)
Salome Administrator Join Date: Jul 2006 Location: Corvallis, Oregon, USA Posts: 2,186	Moderator post... The topics that came up regarding animals and other props now has its own thread here http://forum.orientaldancer.net/danc...als-dance.html

08-28-2008, 04:52 PM	#47 (permalink)
Jane Senior Member Join Date: Oct 2007 Location: In the mountains Posts: 635	My first teacher, who started dancing in 1974, tells her students that AmCab developed veil into it's own unique style because it was a way to hold the audiences attention through the slow music section of the seven part routine. She also said it helped stretch the dance vocabulary because there was not the availability of lessons and videos like we have today. It started as filler I guess Can anyone confirm this?