TiaSerena

Lydia, that is a brilliant idea. I must make them soooo happy. Very cute!

Sara

Samia Gamal doing a veil entrance thing. Egyptian.

An American veil dance.

Btw- I'm just doing this for comparison. Thought it'd be a good idea.

It says Lebanese, so I'll take this as Lebanese veil. (Can anyone clarify if it is by any chance?)

As far as I'm aware that's Turkish? But sadly no sound. I'll try and find more.

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adiemus

Ooooh! thanks Sara - I did a quick tour through You Tube, but ran out of time to post...

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He wahine, he taonga- Every woman is a treasure(Maori proverb)

Sara

No problem. Lol. It was harder than I thought it would be though. Perhaps cause I'm tired and not thinking straight. Gunna try and find better examples.

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With a little bit of this and a little bit of that, now shake your bum.... :P

Kharmine

I've mentioned on other threads the bits of English translations available of Badia Masabni's biography from the 1960s -- Madame Badia mentioned seeing dancers from Alexandria, Egypt, using veils in some kind of dance.

Unfortunately, there isn't much detail available in English. I don't know if they were the kind of veils we're used to seeing today, smaller ones like those used in Tunisian hankerchief dances, or what.

Madame Badia also stated that early in her career she was the only ME dancer in a dance troupe headed by a Frenchwoman. The French were a colonial force in the ME for a long time and brought ballet and other Western influences to the clubs and theaters that catered to Western tourists.

The other likely influence for the veil in theatrical belly dance abroad was Hollywood. "The dance of the seven veils" was a Western construct associated with the fad of "Salome dancing" that was popular in British and American vaudeville from about the 1890s to the early 1900s. And it was a short hop from theater to the movies.

We know Hollywood had an impact on the costumes, music, staging, etc. of raqs sharqi, oryantal danzi and Greek belly dance -- I suspect veils were a part of that, as well.

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samsied

That is interesting about Masabni's biography. There are a couple of interesting things I've heard about the use of the veil in dance. I am not sure about the source of tis information, as I have studied wit a lot of different people and followed various discussions for years and I don't think I kept good notes on this... If anyone knows more--I would be interested to learn about this...

*I had heard the word Egyptian dancers use for a dance veil is a different word than what they would use for a modesty garment. Do any of our Arabic speakers know if this is true?
*Another interesting thing I heard is that there are Caucasian or Uzbek (?) dances where the dancers carry or manipulate a large piece of fabric. I heard Russian dancers were inspired by the visual of this and incorporated that into ballet and other dances. I had also heard that sometimes Persian dancers carried large pieces of fabric while they danced. These would most likely not be much like the elaborate veil work a lot of American dancers perform today but these have been mentioned as possible inspiration for the use of fabric occasionally seen in ballet (which is often cited as the introduction of the veil to Egyptian dance).
*I just got a vintage "how to bellydance" 70's book by Roman Balladine (and others). They claim the American Veil is inspired by the Egyptian Malaya Leff. I doubt that, as the techniques used are so different and I thought dancers performed with a "veil" earlier than the Malaya (as I understand it to be a Reda invention). But I could be wrong on that...

Has anyone read Artemis' document about her research on the use of veil in dance? I hope to read the full length manuscript one day, but I have read an excerpt that is available on Shira's website. (Oriental Dance: Veil Dancing In North Africa And The Middle East)

I am curious about Turkish veil work as well--if anyone knows about the history and development of veilwork in Turkish Oriental!

adiemus

This info is great!! I had a very selfish reason for asking the question - because I want to semi-choreograph a dance (my first!!) with a veil, and would love to use some music that is arabic but not necessarily old-style (Natacha Atlas, or there are some lovely ones by Hossam Ramzy in collaboration with Phil Thornton. My reasoning being that if veil isn't necessarily 'traditional' then it should be more appropriate to use slightly more 'fusion' music than you would for other style dances. Of course, as a baby dancer any dance I do will be very, very simple...!

So... if veil isn't necessarily 'authentic' why oh why has it become so mainstream? Is it simply the relationship between mystery and dance? is it the gracefulness? is it a girly thing? (I'm waiting for Zorba to pounce NOW!)

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He wahine, he taonga- Every woman is a treasure(Maori proverb)

Kharmine

Great questions, Adiemus, but let's keep in mind when we're talking about "authentic" belly dance we're talking about something that sprang mostly from a fusion of North African and Western traditions in the early 20th century.

The early Cairo cabarets had dancers and musicians from various backgrounds and a well-heeled European clientele they were looking to attract. They blended together something that was "ethnic" and yet not really folkloric. Even the bands that played for the dancers were a mixture of Western and traditional ME instruments, and traditional music was also arranged and played to appeal to Westerners, as well.

Raqs sharqi went off into Turkish, Greek and American styles with various evolutions that gave each style a different accent -- and dancers from all the countries have contributed novelties along the way, such as veils, the candelabra on the head, the sword balancing thing, high heels, etc. The cane dance originally came from dances that men traditionally did, the zills are used or not according to personal whim.

Not every dancer in every style uses the same props, wears the same type of costume or moves in exactly the same way. There's a room for variety and personal expression in every style, so much so that it can be hard, if not impossible, to distinguish one from the other. Some of the styles like to use veils more than others, but even within them there are dancers who use 'em more than others.

So when we're talkin' "authentic" belly dance we're referring to something that was developed for the stage from a variety of folk traditions with Western influence thrown in. It has always incorporated costumes and props from a variety of Eastern and Western traditions. And each style has room for individuality.

Unless you're looking to represent something in a specific style, such as the Egyptian which doesn't use a lot of veils, or from one of the older folkloric traditions, you're still well within "authentic" boundaries.

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What if the hokey pokey is really what it's all about?

Aisha Azar

Dear Gang,
As I have stated dozens of times, "authentic" has nothing to do with traditional or what props are being used. Authentic is about the feeling and spirit and cultural essence of the dance. Whether or not so and so uses a veil sometimes, or how or how long or whatever does not make it authentic or not so. I have video of Suheir Zaki walking onto the stage, carrying her veil in one hand, never doing a thing with it and dropping it in say, 30 seconds. I also have video of Mouna Said dancing with her's for a longer period of time. Both women are authentic ethnic dancers. Egyptians tend to enter with the veil open most of the time and use it to add a bit of interest in the entrance of their dance and drop it rather quickly..... as opposed to unwinding themselves from it and doing incredibly intricate things with it in the second part of a five part routine, as is common in the west.
Regards,
A'isha

adiemus

I thought I'd stir up controversy with the word 'authentic'!! It's a loaded word all right, and as soon as I'd sent it I thought better of it - but couldn't think of a better word!

I suppose one thing that reassures me is that the veil has indeed been around a long time in various forms, and as A'isha says, it's the how it's used (as well as the 'how' the dance is danced too!) that's more important than whether or not we can point to a time when the prop was or wasn't used.

But - what about Isis wings?

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He wahine, he taonga- Every woman is a treasure(Maori proverb)