Originally Posted by A'isha Azar

Dear Auntie Crazy,
... belly dance is a specific ethnic dance that originated in some Arab/ North African countries and Turkey. The main countries are Egypt, Lebanon and Turkey. A'isha

Originally Posted by A'isha Azar

It is necessary to know something of the culture, etc. in order to perform the dance with the same physical/ emotional/psychlogical/cultural nuances as the native dancers. Occasionally there is a dancer from outside these cultures who can do that. Usually someone can become an"expert" in one style, but not the others. I have seen exactly one dancer in 33 years who seems to be able to do great justice to both American Oriental and Egyptian style dance. A'isha

Originally Posted by A'isha Azar

As far being "limited" to doing fusion, I do not see this as a limitation at all. In fact, in many ways, it is far more limiting to dance authentic ethnic belly dance. There are more things one must adhere to in order to do the dance correctly, there are more rules, there must be great attention given to the ways in which one works within the boundaries, physically, cultural, psychologically, emotionally, if one is performing authentic dance. A'isha

Originally Posted by A'isha Azar

You say you have an "awfully analytical mind". Much of the work of the dance is visceral rather than intellectual. This means that one must put the analysis on hold at some point and let the gut take over. It is called "belly dance": for more than one good reason as far as I am concerned!! Regards, A'isha

Originally Posted by Auntie Crazy

Ok, that's pretty clear. The dance originated in that particular part of the world, and only those styles are considered authentic belly dance.

A'isha writes- You might be surprised how arguable some people find this concept...

As those styles have changed over time, have they retained their authenticity, since they are evolving naturally in their countries of origin, or does "authentic" apply to what was done during a certain time frame in belly dance history? Western influences have had an impact on the dancers in these countries; I imagine that causes some confusion.


A'isha writes- Something can be non-traditional and still authentic. Even though the dance evolves, it still retains its basic essence and spirit. It is not confusing at all when you look beyond movement and fashion to the soul of the dance. It might be elusive to explain, but it is very evident in watching the dance itself.

As an aside - we are having a similar discussion on one of my ballroom dance forums..... The dancing we do today is different than what it used to be; is this good or bad? If the dance changes too much (and who defines "too much"?), should it be named something else? The correlations here are intriguing.

A'isha writes- There are elements necessary for anything to be what it is. Without those specific elements, it becomes something else. Caramel sauce and yoghurt might be good, but it ain't no hot fudge ice cream sundae no matter how hard it tires!!



At first read, A'isha, I didn't really see the answer to my question here, but after a few more... I think - it is in your heart that one who is not born to the culture referenced above is highly unlikely to ever be capable of properly performing their belly dance. I find that disheartening, and sad. You're saying that if my daughter, or granddaughter, should find a passion in her heart for Egyptian belly dance, I must discourage her from pursuing it, since she's not Egyptian and can never do the dance justice.

A'isha writes- I don't follow the logic that just because everyone can't become professional at performing something, it is disheartening and sad. Would you say the same of ballet or tap? There are many people who pursue these forms of dance with no thought of every getting really good at them. They get enjoyment of their pursuit. You don't have to discourage anyone from trying anything and there is no way that my statement implies that you should do so. One often tends to be more passionate about things they actually have an aptitude for, in any case.

I simply can't imagine telling anyone that about any subject, ever.

A'isha writes- Neither can I.

Where is the joy is sharing their love of dance? I have two driving forces in my life, animal rescue/welfare, and dance. Absolutely NO ONE who knows me for any length of time remains unaware of these passions. I can't imagine loving something outside myself and NOT encouraging others to get involved!

A'isha writes- One can have the joy and love of sharing dance, etc. and still not be able to do it with skill. The two are not the same thing at all.You seem to have somehow decided that I am discouraging people from getting involved, and I think if you read what I said, I did not discourage anyone, nor would I. I am also not going to pretend that every person out there would make a great Turkish belly dancer, because that does a HUGE disservice to the dance. That does not mean they will not be really great at Debke, or be a fabulous drummer, or make great costumes or be a great American Oriental dancer. I think this world of Middle Eastern dance and its off-shoots has something for everyone, but not the SAME thing for us all.

Not to mention, art, by its very nature, either changes or stagnates and dies. In loving an art form, we must accept that the form it had in its infancy is different than what we see today and will be different again in another fifty years. It's the change that gives it new life.

A'isha writes- Who says it doesn't? I have been dancing more than 33 years, about 1/3rd the time the dance has been around. During that time I have seen evolution and devolution and sublime and ridiculous moments in the dance. Change can give new life, or it can completely destroy the integrity of a thing. This dance has had both happen. Authenticity and tradition are not the same thing and never have been.



Until you know other dances as well as you know your favorite, how can you make this generalization? I almost hear you saying authentic dance is the most difficult and all those not born to it simply can't comprehend its subtleties, so they must go make up easier versions they are capable of performing. That's .... er.... not what I would expect. Am I misunderstanding you?

A'isha writes- Yes, you ARE misunderstanding me. The reason that authentic dance is the most challenging and will have just a few great practitioners outside the culture is because it is very difficult for most people to look at things from a view that is different from their own ethnocentric approach to life. This is not MY opinion, but anthropological and sociological science. And fusion is not really simpler, as I stated, but it is usually less challenging than trying to learn a cultural viewpoint in order to enhance a dance style.



Ah, yes, too true - but you can't put the intellect on hold until you understand the technicalities of whatever it is you are performing. While I am practicing and learning, I want to know the how, the why, the which is better or how about this.... when I perform, I sublimate all this knowledge and simply FEEL the dance. Because, of course, you're right - dancing is as least as much an emotional exercise as it is a physical one.

It is, in fact, the only time I can get my mind to shut up and just BE for awhile. *smile*

A'isha writes- Much of the time, in Middle Eastern dance there is no such thing as "why", or a specificity of technique that MUST happen, etc. This is easily seen if you watch three different authentic dancers do something like a shimmy. You see a very basic technique embellished from the culture, soul, body style, musical interpretation and personal viewpoint of the dancer. There is often no "which is better" beyond some basic rules. It is not enough to simply FEEL the dance, becayse in order for it to BE the dance, this feeling has to come out in ways specific to culture and spirit. In other words, the dance is something that is both inside us and outside of us and these two things must mesh. It is not all about me; it is about the dance.
Regards,
A'isha


A.C.

Originally Posted by A'isha Azar

A'isha writes- You might be surprised how arguable some people find this concept...

Originally Posted by A'isha Azar

A'isha writes- Something can be non-traditional and still authentic. Even though the dance evolves, it still retains its basic essence and spirit. It is not confusing at all when you look beyond movement and fashion to the soul of the dance. It might be elusive to explain, but it is very evident in watching the dance itself.

Originally Posted by A'isha Azar

A'isha writes- There are elements necessary for anything to be what it is. Without those specific elements, it becomes something else. Caramel sauce and yoghurt might be good, but it ain't no hot fudge ice cream sundae no matter how hard it tires!!

Originally Posted by A'isha Azar

A'isha writes- I don't follow the logic that just because everyone can't become professional at performing something, it is disheartening and sad. Would you say the same of ballet or tap? There are many people who pursue these forms of dance with no thought of every getting really good at them. They get enjoyment of their pursuit. You don't have to discourage anyone from trying anything and there is no way that my statement implies that you should do so. One often tends to be more passionate about things they actually have an aptitude for, in any case.

Originally Posted by A'isha Azar

A'isha writes- One can have the joy and love of sharing dance, etc. and still not be able to do it with skill. The two are not the same thing at all.You seem to have somehow decided that I am discouraging people from getting involved...

Originally Posted by A'isha Azar

Change can give new life, or it can completely destroy the integrity of a thing. This dance has had both happen.

Originally Posted by A'isha Azar

A'isha writes- Yes, you ARE misunderstanding me. The reason that authentic dance is the most challenging and will have just a few great practitioners outside the culture is....

Originally Posted by Auntie Crazy

Not at all. And please note - I am neither agreeing nor disagreeing with you, only attempting to understand your viewpoint, which, here, was clear and easy to get. ,,

A'isha writes- Actually, I am not as sure as you are that you do understand my viewpoint, for reasons that i will explain later in this response.



Ok, so you believe the dance retains it authenticity even through its evolution, as long as that evolution happens within those specific countries.

A'isha writes- Not at all. I think that evolution must happen within the cultural boundaries of the dance, not the geographical regions of the countries. Evolution can happen anywhere, but in order for it to remain belly dance, it has to happen in a certain cultural spirit.



Well, of course (except the caramel and yogurt ref. - didn't quite catch that). But the question is always, what "specific elements" and who decides that?


A'isha writes- It is not something that is "decided". It is the way it is. Some things happen at a dance's inception and remain. The originators of the dance developed something very specific. It is clear to see when you watch ethnic dancers and those who can reach into that ethnic essence.

I look forward to the day the dance community is able to come to a consensus on this issue. It'll certainly remove a huge amount of internal dissension and make discussions with the general public easier and more consistent.

A'isha writes-I find that I am very consistent in what I say, and that the general public understands me just fine because they have the same definition for the dance as I do. It may not be based in as much education, but the main point is there. I find that dancers tend to argue about what is and what is not Tribal, Goth, AmCab/Amerian Oreintal, etc. I also find that educated dancers right away are aware of what is Turkish, Egyptian and Lebanese. It is because of this essence and feeling that has and is always there, regardless of what evolutions these dances go through, that make them always and readily identifiable as belly dance.



Since you believe only those born to the culture (with rare exceptions) can understand it well enough to perform the dance expertly, it follows that for those whose desire IS to gain that expertise, there is no reason for them to pursue the study of authentic dance, no matter how deep their passion for it may be, because they will never attain their goal.

A'isha writes- Understanding the dance from an expert point of view takes years anyway, so I am not sure what your point is here. I think that most people, unless they are very young and inexperienced in life, or very obsessive, do not make a habit of pursuing a goal that they can not reach, but instead recognize and accept their limitations. I can use pottery as an example. I am not a good potter now and will never be a great one. I do not have it in me, as I am discovering after about 1 1/2 years of practice. However, I can still enjoy making pottery at the level of inexpertise in which I seem to hang out, and enjoy the process itself, or the feel of the clay, the experimenting with glazes, etc. it does not always have to be about becoming an expert.



Folks who truly love an art form honor it and aspire to be the best they can be within it. To tell them, sorry, you weren't born to the right culture and you'll never be any good at it is, to my mind, abhorrent.

A'isha writes- The best one can be can be a personal goal. And in 30 years of teaching, I have never once made any statements about anyone "not being born into the right culture". I have to ask if you find it abhorrent when someone must accept that they will never be a prima ballerina or a first rate writer or reach the level if painting skill that it takes to create light like Vermeer. Can people not work at all of these things in a more
Zen manner and be happy to create without reaching the level of expert? What is abhorrent is when one feels like their own needs and their own ego should come before the artistic endeavour itself.



To rephrase this and paragraph two - as long as the change happens within the countries of origin, the dance remains authentic. Any growth or change that happens outside those countries changes the essence of the dance to the point it can no longer be considered authentic. (Again, neither agreeing nor disagreeing, just ensuring I understand you.)

A'isha writes- This above is the main reason why I do not think you do understand what I am saying. That is NOT what I said or implied at all. I stated, very succinctly, that in order for the dance to remain the dance, it must have certain cultural elements. Occasionally there have been dancers who have innovated and remained true to the essence of the dance, outside of countries of origin. Most often what has happened is that people have created new dance forms, based usually mostly on movement vocabulary alone, without any of the original spirit and essence of the authentic dances.




You've taken a lot of time to explain all this to me, A'isha, and done a really good job of it. I understand your stance and the reasons behind it, and that matters very much! I appreciate the effort you've made here, and also the love you hold for the dance.


A'isha writes- Thankyou, but obviously it was not enough since you really do not seem to get my point, but instead seem to be hinting that I am in some way discouraging dancers instead of encouraging clarity in intent. I do love the dance very much, and it is that love, and a need for dancers to truly understand what it is they are toying with when they call everything that comes down the pike, "belly dance" that keeps me able to fight what really is an uphill battle. However, in the past few years, more and more dancers are beginning to crave clear definition, and I am much encouraged.

Regards and Happy Holidays,
A'isha

God bless!

A.C.