Justice to more than one style? - Page 2

sedoniaraqs · 12-06-2007, 07:40 PM

I will say that when I read claims made by dancers that they can perform/teach Egyptian, Lebanese, and Turkish belly dance my BS radar goes off immediately.

I won't say it *can't* be done, only that most people who would make this claim are likely not experts at any of them, or probably even able to recognize the different styles if they see them.

Sedonia

janaki · 12-06-2007, 11:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sedoniaraqs

I will say that when I read claims made by dancers that they can perform/teach Egyptian, Lebanese, and Turkish belly dance my BS radar goes off immediately.

I won't say it *can't* be done, only that most people who would make this claim are likely not experts at any of them, or probably even able to recognize the different styles if they see them.

Sedonia

Hey Sedonia, can you pls use your BS radar services in BDPD? I agree with your second statement about the so called experts. We hav a teachers in HK. She claims that she studied in Egypt and Turkey and she has certifications

and stuff. Once in a performace she asked the performer why she was tossing her hair like crazy( the performer was dancing zar).

chryssanthi sahar · 12-10-2007, 02:27 AM

I think it really depends on what you mean with "mastering" one style. If your goal is to master the entire parts of a style (Stage version, folkloric version, folk dances, different styles of the stage version, different time periods etc.), then it is impossible to master more than one style. But if your goal is to master parts of a style (let's say stage version of a certain period and folkloric version of some areas as well as 1-2 folks dances), then IMO it is possible to master more than one style. Me for example surely can dance the classical modern Egyptian Raqs Sharqi (this means the style of the early 70ies to the early 90ies) quite well, as well as the folkloric stuff which belongs to a Egyptian routine of that period (Raqs el Assaya, Baladi, Raqs el Sagat -zills-), but I am not a big expert on Khaleegy (which has become very popular in the modern Egyptian routine since the middle of the 90ies) and I definitely don't dance the modern Cairo Raqs Sharqi (well, actually the differences between those styles are rather subtle, but nevertheless....). I also don't dance Egyptian folk dances, but do I have to? There are no possibilities to perform them anyway, except maybe very rarely at a stage show. But since I mainly get hired to perform Raqs Sharqi, this is what I have concentrated on. On the other hand, I am surely an expert on Greek Tsifteteli, because I've been brought up with it. And I'm not talking here about my own Greek-Arabian fusion, which I call "Tsifteteli Oriental", but I'm talking about the traditional Asia Minor style Greek Tsifteteli, which I learned from my grandparents who came from there. And then, I dance and teach also some fantasy and fusion stuff, like for example veil dance (plus that I can dance also the Arabian way with the veil), sword dance, floor dance etc. You can check out my videos on youtube, there I have performances of all those different styles and stuff I'm talking about here
YouTube - Broadcast Yourself.
But I would never dare to tell that I have mastered the entire parts of all of those styles (except Greek Tsifteteli which is not such a wide field anyway

).
So I really think it is a matter of interpretation. On the other hand, if a dancers tells that she can do many styles, she should prove it, performing all of those styles and putting videos on youtube (or selling videos where she performs all of those styles), where the difference between the styles is obvious. Talking is useless, if you can not prove by doing what you are talking about.
By the way, have a look at my new video with fantasy veil dance:

Kharmine · 12-10-2007, 05:31 AM

What a pretty group, CS! Y'all look like a bunch of moving flowers!

I think an experienced, competent, versatile dance teacher can demonstrate the differences between the styles, but I rather doubt anyone can be an expert in more than two or three because it takes years to master a single art.

(OTOH, my mother was a ballroom dance teacher and an expert in more than a few styles -- so I dunno, maybe it depends on the teacher and the styles.)

Maria, I think you're confusing American Cabaret with tribal. If I remember what I've read correctly, Tribal got its start with groups performing in a fantasy style at Renaissance fairs in Northern California starting in the late 1970s or early '80s.

What I know for sure is that what we call today Cabaret/Restaurant/Nightclub/American Oriental evolved starting in the 1960s and mostly on the East Coast where Americans learned belly dance from a variety of immigrants, children of immigrants and imported performers in the ethnic supper clubs that served Turkish, Greek, Armenian and Middle Eastern communities.

These early American pioneers went on to refine their styles as more teachers became available; some went abroad to the ME,Turkey and Greece to learn more. "AmCab" could be a mix of styles, or predominately one style, it all depended on how the dancer learned -- but it was just plain old "belly dance" for decades in the U.S. until someone gave it a name to distinguish its glitzier style from the emerging "earthier" style.

Shanazel · 12-10-2007, 05:48 AM

Can a dancer master diverse styles? Depends on the dancer, I suppose.

Maria, the Am Cab I see younger dancers doing today and the old-style Am Cab that I teach look very different. I'm not sure it is so much the result of an evolution as it is an actual divergence in style. New is very heavy on pops, locks, fancy torso tricks; old is smoother, more emphasis on undulation. I don't know enough about tribal style to come to a firm opinion about it, but it seems American Tribal has had a lot of influence on the new style AmCab .

If I am wandering off topic, I apologize.

Aziyade · 12-12-2007, 03:08 PM

Shira has suggested we refer to the "old-school" American Cabaret as "American Classic" or "American Classic Cabaret" bellydance to separate it from what I consider to be "Egyptianized American Cabaret" of today.

(remember when all you knew it as was just plain ol' "bellydance" ? LOL. simpler times, those!)

Shanazel · 12-13-2007, 01:21 AM

I like the term Classic Am Cab, but wasn't sure anyone would know what the heck I was talking about. I'm less fond of the term "Egyptianized" since it ignores Turkish and other influences on the style.

Auntie Crazy · 12-23-2007, 01:35 AM

I believe, given the unlimited resources of time, access to teachers, and passion, some people could master (any definition you wish) as many BD styles as they wished.

Most of us, however, have only a limited amount of time, restricted access to teachers, and a passion weighed and watered down by everything else that life is; therefore, REALISTICALLY, I would say that the ability to master multiple styles is limited, simply because our resources are limited.

I have to say, though (from my baby belly dancer perspective), I just don't "get" the absolute need to embrace/understand an entire culture to be able to successfully understand and perform a single dance from that culture. I know many of you are strong proponents of that stance, but I don't, at this time, share it.

Maybe later when I have more experience, I'll understand it more clearly, but for now... I just don't believe that I am incapable of learning, mastering and excelling at any particular dance simply because I haven't immersed myself in the culture from which the dance arose. If I did, with my boundless passion but my very limited finances and time, I wouldn't have the heart to take up the art to begin with.

Aisha Azar · 12-23-2007, 03:18 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Auntie Crazy

I believe, given the unlimited resources of time, access to teachers, and passion, some people could master (any definition you wish) as many BD styles as they wished.

Most of us, however, have only a limited amount of time, restricted access to teachers, and a passion weighed and watered down by everything else that life is; therefore, REALISTICALLY, I would say that the ability to master multiple styles is limited, simply because our resources are limited.

I have to say, though (from my baby belly dancer perspective), I just don't "get" the absolute need to embrace/understand an entire culture to be able to successfully understand and perform a single dance from that culture. I know many of you are strong proponents of that stance, but I don't, at this time, share it.

Maybe later when I have more experience, I'll understand it more clearly, but for now... I just don't believe that I am incapable of learning, mastering and excelling at any particular dance simply because I haven't immersed myself in the culture from which the dance arose. If I did, with my boundless passion but my very limited finances and time, I wouldn't have the heart to take up the art to begin with.

Dear Auntie Crazy,
In order to understand belly dance, we must first have some understanding of the cultures and peoples from which it springs. Its cultural elements are what gives the dance is life, soul, its way of interpreting the music, etc. Yes, with time you may have a deeper understanding of it, but if not, there are many fusion styles out there that might attract you more than authentic ethnic belly dance. There is nothing wrong with that either as long as you are truthful with yourself and your audiences abut what you are doing. With a little knowledge under your belt, you might even develop a fusion style, who knows? ( Then people can argue about stuff like "Well, that is REALLY Auntie Crazy Sharghi because the dancer is just putting her feet too close together", or whatever.)
Regards,
A'isha

Auntie Crazy · 12-23-2007, 04:02 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by A'isha Azar

Dear Auntie Crazy,
In order to understand belly dance, we must first have some understanding of the cultures and peoples from which it springs. Its cultural elements are what gives the dance is life, soul, its way of interpreting the music, etc. Yes, with time you may have a deeper understanding of it, but if not, there are many fusion styles out there that might attract you more than authentic ethnic belly dance. There is nothing wrong with that either as long as you are truthful with yourself and your audiences abut what you are doing. With a little knowledge under your belt, you might even develop a fusion style, who knows? ( Then people can argue about stuff like "Well, that is REALLY Auntie Crazy Sharghi because the dancer is just putting her feet too close together", or whatever.)
Regards,
A'isha

First, A'isha, I want to say that you ended your post on a very amusing note. That I should be so blessed!! *smile* (Although "too close together" implies faulty technique - surely, if I've created something then, by definition, it is the "right way" for that creation, correct? *grin!*)

Normally, I don't get into in-depth discussions online because they often devolve into meaningless repetitions, however, dance is near and dear to my heart and I want all the info/understanding I can get my hands on, so...

To rephrase and clarify - in your estimation, I cannot learn "authentic ethnic belly dance" without "some understanding of the cultures and peoples from which it springs" and, if I'm not willing/able to do so, I should limit myself to some type of fusion belly dance?

Can we define "authentic ethnic belly dance"? (I am assuming for the sake of this discussion that, due to its relatively short history, this will not include anything originating in the US.)

Also, "some understanding" could mean anything from reading about its history to visiting the country of origin to studying that culture from within for several years...

I have an awfully analytical mind and the more specific a concept/discussion is, the easier I am able to understand it. Thank you so much for your indulgence!

View Poll Results: Do you believe a dancer can excel or master only one style or many?
Only 1 style of Oriental	2	7.41%
Multiple Oriental styles	7	25.93%
1 style of Oriental and 1 or more folk dances	5	18.52%
Multiple Oriental styles and folk dances	6	22.22%
ATS, tribal fusion or tribaret and 1 oriental style	0	0%
ATS, tribal fusion or tribaret and multiple oriental styles	3	11.11%
ATS, tribal fusion or tribaret and folk dances	0	0%
All Oriental styles and folk dances	0	0%
Other	4	14.81%
Voters: 27. You may not vote on this poll

12-10-2007, 02:27 AM	#13 (permalink)
chryssanthi sahar Moderator Join Date: Jul 2006 Location: Heidelberg, Germany Posts: 1,484	I think it really depends on what you mean with "mastering" one style. If your goal is to master the entire parts of a style (Stage version, folkloric version, folk dances, different styles of the stage version, different time periods etc.), then it is impossible to master more than one style. But if your goal is to master parts of a style (let's say stage version of a certain period and folkloric version of some areas as well as 1-2 folks dances), then IMO it is possible to master more than one style. Me for example surely can dance the classical modern Egyptian Raqs Sharqi (this means the style of the early 70ies to the early 90ies) quite well, as well as the folkloric stuff which belongs to a Egyptian routine of that period (Raqs el Assaya, Baladi, Raqs el Sagat -zills-), but I am not a big expert on Khaleegy (which has become very popular in the modern Egyptian routine since the middle of the 90ies) and I definitely don't dance the modern Cairo Raqs Sharqi (well, actually the differences between those styles are rather subtle, but nevertheless....). I also don't dance Egyptian folk dances, but do I have to? There are no possibilities to perform them anyway, except maybe very rarely at a stage show. But since I mainly get hired to perform Raqs Sharqi, this is what I have concentrated on. On the other hand, I am surely an expert on Greek Tsifteteli, because I've been brought up with it. And I'm not talking here about my own Greek-Arabian fusion, which I call "Tsifteteli Oriental", but I'm talking about the traditional Asia Minor style Greek Tsifteteli, which I learned from my grandparents who came from there. And then, I dance and teach also some fantasy and fusion stuff, like for example veil dance (plus that I can dance also the Arabian way with the veil), sword dance, floor dance etc. You can check out my videos on youtube, there I have performances of all those different styles and stuff I'm talking about here YouTube - Broadcast Yourself. But I would never dare to tell that I have mastered the entire parts of all of those styles (except Greek Tsifteteli which is not such a wide field anyway). So I really think it is a matter of interpretation. On the other hand, if a dancers tells that she can do many styles, she should prove it, performing all of those styles and putting videos on youtube (or selling videos where she performs all of those styles), where the difference between the styles is obvious. Talking is useless, if you can not prove by doing what you are talking about. By the way, have a look at my new video with fantasy veil dance: __________________ Oriental dancer and instructor of Greek origin, living in Germany www.chryssanthi.com

12-10-2007, 05:31 AM	#14 (permalink)
Kharmine V.I.P. Join Date: Nov 2006 Location: Foot of the Rocky Mountains Posts: 1,248	What a pretty group, CS! Y'all look like a bunch of moving flowers! I think an experienced, competent, versatile dance teacher can demonstrate the differences between the styles, but I rather doubt anyone can be an expert in more than two or three because it takes years to master a single art. (OTOH, my mother was a ballroom dance teacher and an expert in more than a few styles -- so I dunno, maybe it depends on the teacher and the styles.) Maria, I think you're confusing American Cabaret with tribal. If I remember what I've read correctly, Tribal got its start with groups performing in a fantasy style at Renaissance fairs in Northern California starting in the late 1970s or early '80s. What I know for sure is that what we call today Cabaret/Restaurant/Nightclub/American Oriental evolved starting in the 1960s and mostly on the East Coast where Americans learned belly dance from a variety of immigrants, children of immigrants and imported performers in the ethnic supper clubs that served Turkish, Greek, Armenian and Middle Eastern communities. These early American pioneers went on to refine their styles as more teachers became available; some went abroad to the ME,Turkey and Greece to learn more. "AmCab" could be a mix of styles, or predominately one style, it all depended on how the dancer learned -- but it was just plain old "belly dance" for decades in the U.S. until someone gave it a name to distinguish its glitzier style from the emerging "earthier" style. __________________ What if the hokey pokey is really what it's all about?

12-10-2007, 05:48 AM	#15 (permalink)
Shanazel Moderator Join Date: Jul 2006 Location: Rocky Mountains USA Posts: 4,679	Can a dancer master diverse styles? Depends on the dancer, I suppose. Maria, the Am Cab I see younger dancers doing today and the old-style Am Cab that I teach look very different. I'm not sure it is so much the result of an evolution as it is an actual divergence in style. New is very heavy on pops, locks, fancy torso tricks; old is smoother, more emphasis on undulation. I don't know enough about tribal style to come to a firm opinion about it, but it seems American Tribal has had a lot of influence on the new style AmCab . If I am wandering off topic, I apologize. Last edited by Shanazel; 12-10-2007 at 05:52 AM.

12-23-2007, 01:35 AM	#18 (permalink)
Auntie Crazy Member Join Date: Jun 2007 Posts: 116	I believe, given the unlimited resources of time, access to teachers, and passion, some people could master (any definition you wish) as many BD styles as they wished. Most of us, however, have only a limited amount of time, restricted access to teachers, and a passion weighed and watered down by everything else that life is; therefore, REALISTICALLY, I would say that the ability to master multiple styles is limited, simply because our resources are limited. I have to say, though (from my baby belly dancer perspective), I just don't "get" the absolute need to embrace/understand an entire culture to be able to successfully understand and perform a single dance from that culture. I know many of you are strong proponents of that stance, but I don't, at this time, share it. Maybe later when I have more experience, I'll understand it more clearly, but for now... I just don't believe that I am incapable of learning, mastering and excelling at any particular dance simply because I haven't immersed myself in the culture from which the dance arose. If I did, with my boundless passion but my very limited finances and time, I wouldn't have the heart to take up the art to begin with. __________________ "I have the talent of single-minded determination and focu…hey look, a cat!”

12-06-2007, 07:40 PM	#11 (permalink)
sedoniaraqs Senior Member Join Date: Jul 2006 Location: cultural wasteland of the midwestern US Posts: 574	I will say that when I read claims made by dancers that they can perform/teach Egyptian, Lebanese, and Turkish belly dance my BS radar goes off immediately. I won't say it can't be done, only that most people who would make this claim are likely not experts at any of them, or probably even able to recognize the different styles if they see them. Sedonia

12-12-2007, 03:08 PM	#16 (permalink)
Aziyade V.I.P. Join Date: Jul 2006 Location: Cornfields of Evansville Indiana. Posts: 1,049	Shira has suggested we refer to the "old-school" American Cabaret as "American Classic" or "American Classic Cabaret" bellydance to separate it from what I consider to be "Egyptianized American Cabaret" of today. (remember when all you knew it as was just plain ol' "bellydance" ? LOL. simpler times, those!)

12-13-2007, 01:21 AM	#17 (permalink)
Shanazel Moderator Join Date: Jul 2006 Location: Rocky Mountains USA Posts: 4,679	I like the term Classic Am Cab, but wasn't sure anyone would know what the heck I was talking about. I'm less fond of the term "Egyptianized" since it ignores Turkish and other influences on the style.