janaki

Well put it Khaira!!!

JUst not belly dancers, the common opinion from majority of the public is that all dancers have loose morals.

Shanazel

I understand now what you meant. Thank you for the explanation.

Well, it is true that the need to make a living was part of the reason I went into dancing for pay way back when, but I became a range conservationist and later a legal assistant for the same reasons: I liked the fields, and I also had to pay for housing and groceries.

chryssanthi sahar

What's wrong with making a living out of dancing? And why should Fifi Abdou go to hell because of this? Actually she improved her life immensely, got out of poverty, became a star, rich and definitely lot more independent than most women in Islamic countries.
But the point is exactly there: a dancer is considered to be a prostitute in Islamic societies (and not only. Generally in fundamentalist monotheistic religious societies. We've discussed this topic in other threads), because she is presenting herself in public, exposing her body to public (male) glances. And this is haram for a Muslim woman!
So dear Lydia, you don't need to wonder that people in Dubai, where you live, consider you to be a prostitute. If according to the Islam it is haram for a woman to show her hair and in some cases even her face in public, how shouldn't it be haram to show her body?
Sorry for not being politically correct, but I think one must be sincere and name things as they are.
As for my part, since I am not a Moslem and I will surely never become one, I give a damn about what people from such countries consider me to be. Of course I know that you are in a different situation Lydia dear, but just be patient and try to accept things as they are. And if you get too much of the whole stuff, just come back to good old Europe.

__________________
Oriental dancer and instructor of Greek origin, living in Germany
www.chryssanthi.com

Shanazel

And therein lies the problem: an independent, successful woman? God forbid! The world will surely end. Call her names and ostrasize her socially and maybe she'll go back to being a good, obedient modest girl.

chryssanthi sahar

You've got the point Shanazel! Has the Prophet enlighted you?

__________________
Oriental dancer and instructor of Greek origin, living in Germany
www.chryssanthi.com

Lydia dubai

GOSH WHAT DID I START??i think i made this thread wrong for poeple to understand.....its just so simple to me,why do must people in the middle east think that dancers are indecent people? So i thought yes if you see malaya and been brought up with that ,sure you will think dancers are bad news....that is what i meant with this thread
I never seen malaya,this is the first time i saw it on youtube
And Gypsy if you think that Malaya is cool and just fine,but fifi abdo is bad news than i dont know ? to me Malaya is not looking so cool....
I know there are good and bad dancers and everybody that knows me ,knows what i think about the ,,cheapies,,
Than thank you chryshanty for the invitation LOL
I am very happy in the middle east i would have left a long time ago if i was not...yes i pay a heavy price to be here ,but i love my work,and i am well respected in my field,but there is always the hickup that i know there are people around that i can not be honest with and cant say what i do for a living...But i avoid to be those and there are plenty poeple that love me for what i am so no worry ,i am just fine...and beside that i have my ,,sweet,, mouth that works very well if somebody says anything that i think is unjust....and i say again this mail is from a very proud Lydia,to be in the middle east working so many years and very succesfull,and like been said in the newspaper the ,,classiest dancer,, in the area,thank you very much everybody,,LOL,, and have a very lovely day,Lydia

Tarik Sultan

The problem here is not the dance itself, but what is considered acceptable behavior for a woman in public and her role in society. A woman’s place is still believed to be primarily in the home in the capacity of an obedient daughter who upholds family honor by observing proper behavior, or as a wife and mother. Even if she has a job and works, she is still expected to do so in a way that does not compromise her social role or the honor of the family.

Being an entertainer has two problems, first is class. Since ancient times, being a public entertainer was a low status occupation. It was always left to slaves, or very poor people.
Therefore, it carries a bit of shame to be an entertainer in front of strangers. If you are dancing or singing within the context of entertaining your family and friends, its no problem, because this is celebration, not an occupation and does not conflict with a person’s social role.

The second problem is morality. A woman is perceived to be a source of sexual temptation to men, just because she is a woman. Her very existence and body is seen as potentially seductive in the presence of men. Therefore, women are expected to dress and behave modestly in public and not do or say anything that will attract attention to them. I must also add here that this is an attitude that has existed since antiquity throughout the Mediterranean world and much of Asia and Africa, so it predates and is not limited to Islam. Therefore, for a woman to engage in public behavior that calls attention to her, is seen not only as being in bad taste, but almost an invitation for seduction, or at least blatant temptation.

Thirdly. This is a part of the world where nakedness is associated with deep shame. Status was always shown by the amount of clothes you wore. Contrary to the fantasy, women in the harems were not laying around half naked. They competed by how many layers they wore and the richness of the fabric. Even in ancient Egypt, it was only slaves who went around naked, not the nobility. Therefore, showing your skin in public is a big no, no! Therefore, culturally speaking, the badlit Raks is like pouring gasoline on fire. It is very controversial.

This is a point that I’ve raised many times before which always gets me into trouble, but it is a fact. Is the dance an art, yes it is. Does that mean that most people in Egypt or the Middle East see it that way, NO! It is an industry all around and if you go to Egypt it is blatantly obvious. Badia Masabni was a legendary artist, but she was also a very shrewd business woman with a capital B. Nightclubs were a western importation and at the time, the early 20th century, the clientele was mostly male and European. Native people never went to see dancers or hear singers, they hired them to perform in their homes and only if there was a legitimate cause for a celebration. It was the tourist industry that created the demand for nightclubs. The Badlit Raks that we associate with the dance is not a product of Eastern culture at all. It’s a western fantasy outfit. It was adopted because the male customers who came to Egypt came expecting to see their harem fantasy. They wanted to see skin. For Easterners this wasn’t necessary because the very sight of a woman in public unveiled was exciting enough, even if she was totally clothed. Badia, and those like her, being business people, figured if there was a demand, then there was money to be made, so they adopted the costume, even though it caused a lot of uproar.

The unfortunate part is that most of the people in Egypt see the dance as a way to make money first and an art second or even third. Even Um Kalthoum admitted that her primary reason for becoming a singer was economic, not artistic. The sad fact is that in the Middle East, the majority of dance that is done is of very poor artistic quality, if it has any at all. It is seen primarily as a popular form of entertainment for a mostly male audience. So what does that mean? It means the only ones who become dancers, tend to be poor, low class women, who haven’t got anyone to take care of them and no education or job skills to take care of themselves. Therefore, Lydia, even though you are legitimate, you are fighting years of experience and perceptions based on the fact that the majority are NOT legitimate artists.

Its true that entertainers like Om Kalthoum and Firuz have gained a level of respectability incertain circles, however, it is still not universal. There are still many people, who would object violently to the idea of their daughter becoming an entertainer, especially if they are very conservative and religious. There are still people in Egypt who believe that Om Kalthoum is going to hell because she devoted her life to music. However, you are right that these artists, not only because of their talent, but most importantly because of their personal behavior, were able to convince many people that they were legitimate artists. However, artists like Marwa, and Dina, who for whatever reason, go out of their way to push people’s buttons do not help the situation.

Perhaps this is true in Egypt, but it’s not the case outside of Egypt. For all our mistakes and cultural misunderstandings, we have done a lot to elevate the image of the dance around the world. We have put it on the best concert stages around the world and have been able to convince many Egyptians and other Middle Easterners that this is a legitimate art. The reason is that we believe in the dance. We believe that dance in general is an art and we don’t have any of the cultural baggage to deal with that people in Egypt do, so we are free to do things in many different venues. Personally I perform everywhere from concert stages to weddings to hole in the wall nightclubs. I’ve performed at Lincolin Center, the Museum of Natural History and the U.N. Even though Cairo has a relatively new state of the art Opera house, Raks Sharki has never been to the best of my knowledge, been presented on its stage.

Unfortunately, if you don’t fit the accepted mold in Egypt as to the context of a dancer, you don’t get the opportunity to perform. Tito, although he is a talented performer, does not work in Cairo, for the simple reason that all the nightclubs cater to a mostly male clientele. The establishment still can’t see the dance in the context of an art, rather than mere entertainment. This is why in Egypt any woman can get a job somewhere if she has the guts to put on the costume, even if she’s not particularly attractive and is why we can see the same thing here in the US in clubs that are Arab owned. They will hire anyone who has a good body and a costume, regardless of whether or not she has any talent at all. In my experience, it is that attitude, which has been imported here, which is slowing the progress of the dance.

Lydia dubai

THANK YOU TARIK!!!!! CHAPPO,i feel that you realy realy understand what i am talking about,and i can never ever explain it in english how you can...Thank you very much i was getting frustrated because i felt misunderstoud,,big hug for this mail above....Lydia biiiiiiiiig biiiiiiiiiiiiiiiig hug,

Tarik Sultan

Dear Lydia:
I understand your frustration, but don’t give up hope. You are a legitimate artist, but you have to understand that the people you are dealing with have had a lifetime of seeing people who become dancers for all the wrong reasons, and because their motives are usually mainly economic, they often engage in activities that are morally questionable. Their attitude about dancers has nothing to do with Malaya. Malaya is not a performance dance, its a social dance done in private. The attitude has to do with what Gypsy mentioned, which I ellaborated, (spelling) on.

Because of the cultural role of women in that society, there are many people who will not understand you. You have to realize that and be strong within yourself. This is why, in a previous post on this issue, I made it clear that my position to people who do not understand me or refuse to even try to, is $%^K those people! Its not that I dislike Middle Eastern people, its that I recognize they are people like any other. Some are very nice, some are so, so and some are down right emotionally disturbed or toxic. This is why you often have to let people know in no uncertain terms that you are under no obligation to live up to their low poinion of who you shuld be. If they are just random strangers, that goes double. Some people seem to think that they are entitled to be rude or insensitive and that is why you will sometimes have to put them in their places. I’ll give you an example. A friend of mine who dances in Montreal did a show for the local Arab community. Afterwards, a girl wearing hejab came up to her in a very self righteous tone and said, “aren’t you ashamed to be exposing your body like that in front of strangers? How disgusting!” My friend, looking her dead in the eyes, replied, in a very sweet tone with a smile, “bitch let me tell you something, your head may be covered, but your clothes are skin tight and I can see right through them. I can see that you are wearing thong panties and they are white! You are a disgrace to your religion, so you need to fix yourself before you come trying to tell me anything!”

Listen, even as a man I get it. I get people making assumptions about my sexual orientation because I dance. I get people making assumptions about my character, class and intelligence because I’m a person of African descent. I learned very early on to be stead fast in the knowledge of who I am and what I am doing, no matter what anyone else may think or believe.

So yes, you are going to encounter a lot of stupid people, and because there are so many dancers who are in the business for all the wrong reasons, many people will make assumptions until they get to know you. That’s just the way it is and you can’t worry about it if you want to keep your mental and emotional health. You may not live to see things change, but as long as there are people like you out there, things will change. Remember, once upon a not so long ago time, even Bballerinas were considered prostitutes. It took many years to change that perception, it didn't happen over night.

Now, as far as the Melaya thing is concerned, do not expect logic in what I’m about to tell you, just realize that it is the way people think about the situation. Melaya, as raunchy as it may be, is not a performance. It’s not done in public, but in private, therefore, the way these girls look at it, as long as its with their family and friends, its okay. If they were doing it in front of strangers or for pay, then it would be a shame. Nevertheless, I do know several Emeratis who find it a disgusting and shameful practice. Just realize that most people are conditioned to go along with whatever the majority says. They do not think for themselves and are terrified of being perceived as an outsider, therefore, they will go along with the stupidest actions or opinions in order to fit in and be accepted. You are among the rare individuals who has a mind of their own and isn’t afraid to be logical. It’s a mixed blessing, but would you rather be one of the sheep in the heard or be free?

Tarik Sultan

God, they act like we're politicians or something. Now those are the real whores!