It's Egyptian style when Egyptians do it??? - Page 2

Mark_Balahadia · 11-02-2007, 02:40 PM

This is a very interesting discussion

As of late, I've seen a couple of Egyptian dancers incorporate Lebanese movements and vice versa. I suppose that once a movement is adopted and altered to suit regional taste that it becomes Egyptian (or Lebanese).

Leila of Cairo taught a choreography to Ansak when she was in DC that included a butt lift, which is used by a lot of modern Lebanese dancers. However, she altered it by thrusting the pelvic backward without the accompanying hop that is associated with the Lebanese version.

Aziyade · 11-02-2007, 03:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Shanazel

Does an Egyptian dancer introducing splits, miniskirts, etc. during a performance of the dance open the door for non-Egyptian (as in non-ethnic, not as in style) dancers to follow through in miniskirts to do the splits? Or do such things remain the perogative of those with Egyptian family background only?

This is EXACTLY what I'm asking -- and you put it really well!!

F'rinstance:

I'm trying to learn Shamadan. Now I realize this is a recent tradition, but I haven't seen a whole lot in print discussing it. I'm seeing some little "things" that I'm not really sure where they come from, gestures, movements that some more carnivalesque -- I'm sure Nadia Hamdi knew exactly what she was doing when she did her dance, but as a student I'm trying to figure out if some of the things she did are part of the TRADITION, part of what everyone was doing with Shamadan, or just her -- and would it look good if I did, or look like the proverbial train wreck.

It's less about concern over the family background, but more about KNOWING what all these little nuances mean (which presumably you would if you HAD the family background).

I guess it reaches a point where as a student I feel like if I wasn't born and raised in Luxor, I'm NEVER going to understand the little nuances and the subtleties that make up Egyptian dance, so why even try? You know? If I imitate Dina's gestures and emotives (to coin a word), won't people just say "she's just imitating Dina." Since I didn't live Sohair Zaki's life, if I copy what she did and try to feel the music the way I imagine she might have felt it, aren't I still just a "pretender" ?

Since I saw Randa do the butt hop thing, can I do it? If I feel I have the appropriate place for it in my dance?

Part of my confusion is that a lot of people say "XYZ American dancer is too jazz-influenced" or "too ballet influenced." A lot of what I see on the Ahlan Wa Sahlan videos seems jazz influenced, and a lot of it is coming from the Egyptians themselves.

I guess it boils down to this: If Randa started dancing in a way that was EXTREMELY parallel to the Indigo/Rachel Brice/Mardi Love style -- then would THAT look/style become Egyptian dance? What if a dozen Egyptian dancers started doing it? What if they said they were inspired by Rachel? Would that style become representative as part of the "Egyptian Style" ??

does this make any sense?

Aisha Azar · 11-02-2007, 03:45 PM

Dear Aziyade,
Responses in context

Quote:

Originally Posted by Aziyade

This is EXACTLY what I'm asking -- and you put it really well!!

F'rinstance:

I'm trying to learn Shamadan. Now I realize this is a recent tradition, but I haven't seen a whole lot in print discussing it. I'm seeing some little "things" that I'm not really sure where they come from, gestures, movements that some more carnivalesque -- I'm sure Nadia Hamdi knew exactly what she was doing when she did her dance, but as a student I'm trying to figure out if some of the things she did are part of the TRADITION, part of what everyone was doing with Shamadan, or just her -- and would it look good if I did, or look like the proverbial train wreck.

A'isha writes- What I have been trying to say is that in context, what Nadia Hamdi, or any other Egytian does, becomes their own little Egyptian dance, because they have the cultural thing going on. Once again, it is not a specific movement. I hope you will do the following exersize to help you get a little past the movement issue. The next time you watch an Egy[ptian, or Turkish or Lebanese dancer, try to stop learning movement from them and concentrate on something beyond that. try to see the entire picture of the dance that they are creating. I hate to sound boring with all of this but I think you are getting sort of stuck in the typical western rut that looks at movement as the be all and end all of the dance. It is just another vehicle for expression. ( I did not mean for that to sound mean or critical and I hope it does not.)

It's less about concern over the family background, but more about KNOWING what all these little nuances mean (which presumably you would if you HAD the family background).

A'isha writes- A lot of those "little nuances" do not mean anything specific, though a few do. I was very thrilled to hear Fifi say the very same thing at her workshops in Texas in May. She said that a lot of stuff is jut to add fun and interest to the dance and has no meaning as such. Egyptians understand the broad meaning of the feeling of fun behind the nuance. For example, she pretend to hit herself in the side of the head when she is dancing to Agheeb AGheeb (Strange, Strange) just because its FUN! that is understandable in cultural context to the song.

I guess it reaches a point where as a student I feel like if I wasn't born and raised in Luxor, I'm NEVER going to understand the little nuances and the subtleties that make up Egyptian dance, so why even try? You know? If I imitate Dina's gestures and emotives (to coin a word), won't people just say "she's just imitating Dina." Since I didn't live Sohair Zaki's life, if I copy what she did and try to feel the music the way I imagine she might have felt it, aren't I still just a "pretender" ?

A'isha writes- And who are you supposed to imitate? These are the very dancers that we are trying to dance like and I consider it a compliment when someone says I look like I am imitating Dina or Soheir or Mouna. Believe me when I tell you that you are just at a growing point in your dance where you are overly intellectualizing what you are doing. Relax and enjoy it. No, you were not born in Luxor, but there is still some chance that you might turn out to be a darn good Egyptian dancer some day if you learn to pay attention to the soul of the dance, don't worry so much about perfecting movement to death. Or, you might find you can dance great American Oriental or Turkish or Lebanese or Tribal instead. Just be real with that. I am not sure how long you have been dancing, but give it 8-10 years before you get totally discouraged. It took me 8 before I realized that Egyptian was the style for me. I am not an Egyptian, but the style of dance is who I am.

Since I saw Randa do the butt hop thing, can I do it? If I feel I have the appropriate place for it in my dance?

A'isha- Big sigh here.... Again with the movement hang up. This is one of the biggest problems in western dancers. They get stuck in the movement thing and can not move out of it. I am so afraid that this is going to be taken wrong... I mean it as a help, not a critical statement.

Part of my confusion is that a lot of people say "XYZ American dancer is too jazz-influenced" or "too ballet influenced." A lot of what I see on the Ahlan Wa Sahlan videos seems jazz influenced, and a lot of it is coming from the Egyptians themselves.

A'isha writes-I have pointed out that Egyptains use movements that might be found in other dance forms too. It is the context in which movement is used, NOT the movement itself.

I guess it boils down to this: If Randa started dancing in a way that was EXTREMELY parallel to the Indigo/Rachel Brice/Mardi Love style -- then would THAT look/style become Egyptian dance? What if a dozen Egyptian dancers started doing it? What if they said they were inspired by Rachel? Would that style become representative as part of the "Egyptian Style" ??

does this make any sense?

A'isha writes- First, if Randa used some of the same movements as Rachel Brice, she would probably do it in a very Egyptianized way, because that is who she is. It would no longer be Egyptian belly dance, but you would probably see Egyptian influence written all over it. First, there I no musical support in Egyptian music for a Rachel Brice thing. So you see how impossible that would be, because the dance is tied to the music. Let's use the example of when most Egyptian dancers try to do Gulf/ Saudi dance. It ain't the real thing because they have the wrong spirit and essence. It will never become representative of the Gulf style because it is wrong. If Randa tried to dance like Rachel, people would probably say the same thing, that she is doing a poor imitation of Tribal Fusion. Especially if she was using Rachel style music.

Regards,
A'isha

Eshta · 11-02-2007, 04:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Aziyade

I guess it boils down to this: If Randa started dancing in a way that was EXTREMELY parallel to the Indigo/Rachel Brice/Mardi Love style -- then would THAT look/style become Egyptian dance? What if a dozen Egyptian dancers started doing it? What if they said they were inspired by Rachel? Would that style become representative as part of the "Egyptian Style" ??

does this make any sense?

Yes, lots of sense! I *guess* one of the biggest differences as I understand it is that "Egyptian" refers to a national identity, not a dance style per se. It's the collective experience of a nation that leads to its dancers doing what it does - this is the cultural filter that has been referred to earlier in this thread.

Tribal is a manifestation of an american filter, and it makes sense in american terms of reference - there is less of the flirtatious, and greater technique, female empowerment, and a lot of fantasy in the costuming front. If this cultural filter became compatible with the Egyptian collective consciousness, I believe it would be possible that it becomes incorporated in Egyptian style dance, and if enough dancers did it to become "mainstream" Egyptian style, then yes it becomes Egyptian style belly dance.

Does that then necessarily mean that the only innovators in Egyptian dance must be Egyptian dancers? Sort of, I think. As long as you define "Egyptian" as one who is fully integrated with Egyptian culture and so is within the Egyptian cultural filter.

But that doesn't mean all us 'pretenders' should just give up now. It just means we can't have it both ways! It's very much like learning a language. We can try to learn a foreign language but it takes a lot to reach a point where you can speak like a native, and even then there will be nuances and expressions that locals will understand instinctively that you struggle with. But some people clearly manage it. And if you don't reach that point, doesn't mean you'll gain no value from being able to speak the language "just" fluently, rather than like a native!

This is just my view, and clearly being my point of view it's neither right or wrong. It's a fascinating topic, I'd love to hear more people's thoughts!

Tarik Sultan · 11-02-2007, 04:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Moon

I'm curious about the answers too, as this video I saw this morning confused me:

I thought splits and stuff like that are not part of Egyptian style? Am I totally wrong or...?

This was a fusion routine, not an Oriental dance routine. It was in the context of a movie, not representative of what was neccessarily done in a nightclub routine.

Moon · 11-02-2007, 04:32 PM

Ok, thanks Tarik. I wondered if it had anything to do with the subject of the movie because she changed costumes very magically and all.

Tarik Sultan · 11-02-2007, 04:49 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by gypsy8522

<snip>
The thing about native performers is, they are not pretending or trying to dance in 'Egyptian style'... No matter how many splits, mini skirts, ballet turns, or any other outside elements they choose to incorporate into their routines, it is not going to change the fact they ARE Egyptian.

This is a very good point. What people don't realize is that they don't have to try to be "authentic" they are what and who they are. Its like I don't have to "try to be West Indian", I am. Having said that though, we must understand that these people are entertainers. Therefore, they are in a lot of comptition with each other to make their shows stand out. Therefore, they are constantly trying to be innovative with their costumes, and shows.

Dina chose her style of costuming and movements because she wanted to stand out from the rest of the crowd. She became a sensation and then others began to immitate her.

Taheya put Brazilian steps in her dance which is why she was called Karioka. Naima Akef was first a circus performer, so from time to time she would put flips in her routine. The clip about Fifi doing the splits wasn't from the play, it was in a concert where she was portraying a Mohamed Ali Street Dancer. They did do splits. Its not something the nightclub dancers did, but because she was portreying a character, it was appropriate to her routine. She also did it when she was portraying a Sumbati Ghazeyah, because they also did splits.

Last time I saw Negwa, she started the show with mops and buckets and ended with the most god awful waltz! Therefore, entertainers do all sorts of things. We have to realize that there is a difference between someone being innovative and creative, or maybe even comical in a certain context, as opposed to being representative of authentic Egyptian dance. I mean can you just imagine someone teaching authentic Egyptian Mop and Bucket Dance?

Suheir · 11-02-2007, 05:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tarik Sultan

I mean can you just imagine someone teaching authentic Egyptian Mop and Bucket Dance?

You didn't seriously want us to answer that?!

Tarik Sultan · 11-02-2007, 05:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Suheir

You didn't seriously want us to answer that?!

No, but I double dare you to teach it

Shanazel · 11-02-2007, 05:32 PM

How about an authentic American Cabaret Mop and Bucket Dance, innovatively using vacuum cleaners and Glad trash bags?

11-02-2007, 02:40 PM	#11 (permalink)
Mark_Balahadia Member Join Date: Jul 2006 Location: balad ra'eesa Posts: 204	This is a very interesting discussion As of late, I've seen a couple of Egyptian dancers incorporate Lebanese movements and vice versa. I suppose that once a movement is adopted and altered to suit regional taste that it becomes Egyptian (or Lebanese). Leila of Cairo taught a choreography to Ansak when she was in DC that included a butt lift, which is used by a lot of modern Lebanese dancers. However, she altered it by thrusting the pelvic backward without the accompanying hop that is associated with the Lebanese version. __________________ badde 3eish!!! www.markbalahadia.com

11-02-2007, 04:32 PM	#16 (permalink)
Moon V.I.P. Join Date: Jul 2006 Location: the Netherlands Posts: 3,642	Ok, thanks Tarik. I wondered if it had anything to do with the subject of the movie because she changed costumes very magically and all.

11-02-2007, 05:32 PM	#20 (permalink)
Shanazel Moderator Join Date: Jul 2006 Location: Rocky Mountains USA Posts: 4,679	How about an authentic American Cabaret Mop and Bucket Dance, innovatively using vacuum cleaners and Glad trash bags?