Karshlamar and confusion

chryssanthi sahar · 09-29-2007, 03:54 AM

Although I learnt a Greek version of Karshlamar (in Greek: Kasilamas or Karsilamas) from my grandfather, who was a Pontios Greek, this means Greek from Turkey, from the Black Sea area, I'm still not sure, how this dance really looks like. I thought that the version that I know, was the real Kasilamas/Karshlamar, but since I started dealing more with the different ways to dance 9/8 music, I found out, that there are innumerable ways to dance it. Besides this I found out, that in Greece there are dances which are called Kasilamas, but they are not danced on 9/8 music (for example Pontios Kasilamas). As about my grandpas version, I found out that in Greece it considered to be the Smyrna (Izmir) Kasilamas. But I have no idea how the Turks dance Karshlamar and how many versions of the Turkish Karshlamar there are. Can anyone of our Turkish friends (or Turkish dance experts. Kirazeeeeeeee!!!hellllppp!!!) help me further

? Thank you.

Kiraze · 09-30-2007, 12:33 AM

Sorry Cryssanthi but I know very little about karsilama as a folk dance as this dance is mostly danced in Thrace area which I am not at all familiar with (most of my friends and relatives are from "Halay-areas"). What I know is that this dance is mostly danced with dancers facing one another and often but not always rhythm used in dance is 9/8 but it can be almost anything else too... and to different styles I would say that there are so many styles as there are villages where these dances are danced as it is always with real living folk dances which are still danced as an integral part of celebrations.

it also makes karsilama more confusing as karsilama rhythm (9/8) is used with so many other folkdances like it is very typical in Zeybek, and as Zeybek is danced e.g at Izmir (Smyrna) area that probably also influences Greek kasilamas

chryssanthi sahar · 10-02-2007, 02:47 AM

O.k. Kiraze, you seem to be as confused as I am

But thanks a lot for trying to help

Probably there is no "real" Karsilama in the sense of standardised one. So I'll stick to the version of my grandpa

nicknack · 10-02-2007, 12:36 PM

Ok now I'm confused (well it is my natural state). Has any dancer adapted karshlamar for stage in Turkey? I know some dancers incorprate a few karshlamar steps into a routine, but has anyone ever done a full on karshlamar on stage?

I think it'd be useful to get a general overview of how different people dance it.

xotic · 10-04-2007, 07:09 PM

Well 'karsilama' means 'face to face' (or "opposite to opposite") in Turkish so I always thought that 2 people must do the dance in order for it to be a karsilama?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?

I'm confuzed

chryssanthi sahar · 10-05-2007, 04:03 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by xotic

Well 'karsilama' means 'face to face' (or "opposite to opposite") in Turkish so I always thought that 2 people must do the dance in order for it to be a karsilama?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?

I'm confuzed

Well yes, as far as I know, there must be 2 people who dance Karsilama, but this is also the only thing I'm sure about now

I have seen dancers though dancing in their routines on 9/8 music, calling it Karsilama. Maybe they should call it Roma Havasi ? What do you think Xotic?

sedoniaraqs · 10-05-2007, 12:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by chryssanthi sahar

Well yes, as far as I know, there must be 2 people who dance Karsilama, but this is also the only thing I'm sure about now

I have seen dancers though dancing in their routines on 9/8 music, calling it Karsilama. Maybe they should call it Roma Havasi ? What do you think Xotic?

Well, 9/8 music can be used as part of a Turkish, Greek, or American Oriental routine; dancers may refer informally to the music or the 9/8 rhythm as Karsilama, but in that sense they are not implying that the dance is a folkloric Karsilama.

Sedonia

xotic · 10-06-2007, 11:20 PM

It's a tricky one guys. I seriously have no idea! What sedoniaraqs said also makes sense...

I will ask my aunt about it tomorrow and get back to you.

chryssanthi sahar · 10-08-2007, 03:22 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sedoniaraqs

Well, 9/8 music can be used as part of a Turkish, Greek, or American Oriental routine; dancers may refer informally to the music or the 9/8 rhythm as Karsilama, but in that sense they are not implying that the dance is a folkloric Karsilama.

Sedonia

Honey, Greek belly dance routine does not exist

. What you call in the States "Greek" routine is an American invention (probably by the second and more generation Greeks living over there). The only belly dance we have in Greece is Tsifteteli, which is actually a social dance, but can get also performed. Have a look at my article History of the greek Tsifteteli
Greek dancers though never perform on 9/8 music, because for Greeks, this is NO belly dance music. Karsilama in the most Greek versions is not danced with the hips and it is definitely not considered to be belly dance. Besides this, in Greece Karsilama is for sure not a solo dance. It always get danced in couples.

sedoniaraqs · 10-08-2007, 03:59 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by chryssanthi sahar

Honey, Greek belly dance routine does not exist

. What you call in the States "Greek" routine is an American invention (probably by the second and more generation Greeks living over there).

Yes, you're correct -- I was thinking of what Greek Americans I have encountered expect in an oriental dance routine.

09-29-2007, 03:54 AM	#1 (permalink)
chryssanthi sahar Moderator Join Date: Jul 2006 Location: Heidelberg, Germany Posts: 1,482	Karshlamar and confusion Although I learnt a Greek version of Karshlamar (in Greek: Kasilamas or Karsilamas) from my grandfather, who was a Pontios Greek, this means Greek from Turkey, from the Black Sea area, I'm still not sure, how this dance really looks like. I thought that the version that I know, was the real Kasilamas/Karshlamar, but since I started dealing more with the different ways to dance 9/8 music, I found out, that there are innumerable ways to dance it. Besides this I found out, that in Greece there are dances which are called Kasilamas, but they are not danced on 9/8 music (for example Pontios Kasilamas). As about my grandpas version, I found out that in Greece it considered to be the Smyrna (Izmir) Kasilamas. But I have no idea how the Turks dance Karshlamar and how many versions of the Turkish Karshlamar there are. Can anyone of our Turkish friends (or Turkish dance experts. Kirazeeeeeeee!!!hellllppp!!!) help me further? Thank you. __________________ Oriental dancer and instructor of Greek origin, living in Germany www.chryssanthi.com

10-02-2007, 02:47 AM	#3 (permalink)
chryssanthi sahar Moderator Join Date: Jul 2006 Location: Heidelberg, Germany Posts: 1,482	O.k. Kiraze, you seem to be as confused as I am But thanks a lot for trying to help Probably there is no "real" Karsilama in the sense of standardised one. So I'll stick to the version of my grandpa __________________ Oriental dancer and instructor of Greek origin, living in Germany www.chryssanthi.com

10-02-2007, 12:36 PM	#4 (permalink)
nicknack Moderator Join Date: Dec 2006 Location: Nottingham UK Posts: 269	Ok now I'm confused (well it is my natural state). Has any dancer adapted karshlamar for stage in Turkey? I know some dancers incorprate a few karshlamar steps into a routine, but has anyone ever done a full on karshlamar on stage? I think it'd be useful to get a general overview of how different people dance it. __________________ *Cause I'm not here to let you down. But the costume makes the clown.*

09-30-2007, 12:33 AM	#2 (permalink)
Kiraze Member Join Date: Jul 2006 Location: Singapore Posts: 389	Sorry Cryssanthi but I know very little about karsilama as a folk dance as this dance is mostly danced in Thrace area which I am not at all familiar with (most of my friends and relatives are from "Halay-areas"). What I know is that this dance is mostly danced with dancers facing one another and often but not always rhythm used in dance is 9/8 but it can be almost anything else too... and to different styles I would say that there are so many styles as there are villages where these dances are danced as it is always with real living folk dances which are still danced as an integral part of celebrations. it also makes karsilama more confusing as karsilama rhythm (9/8) is used with so many other folkdances like it is very typical in Zeybek, and as Zeybek is danced e.g at Izmir (Smyrna) area that probably also influences Greek kasilamas

10-04-2007, 07:09 PM	#5 (permalink)
xotic Member Join Date: Dec 2006 Location: London Town Posts: 72	Well 'karsilama' means 'face to face' (or "opposite to opposite") in Turkish so I always thought that 2 people must do the dance in order for it to be a karsilama?!?!?!?!?!?!?!? I'm confuzed

10-06-2007, 11:20 PM	#8 (permalink)
xotic Member Join Date: Dec 2006 Location: London Town Posts: 72	It's a tricky one guys. I seriously have no idea! What sedoniaraqs said also makes sense... I will ask my aunt about it tomorrow and get back to you.