Oriental bellydance during the 700-1100 AD.

Sammet · 09-27-2007, 06:25 AM

Hi.

Im new here, and I think I did try to post a thread about this yesterday, but did not succeed.

Im in need of your help.
I am interested in history and bellydance and I wonder about the kind of bellydance that did exist during the 700-1100 AD in the Arabic countries.

Can anyone tell me either some history, information, what kind of "dance movement" they did, perhaps even show me a video with example or point me to someone who can?

I would be very greatfull.

Why I ask is cause im part of a group that recreates this period of time to show peopel nowdays how people back then did live during this time here in sweden where I live.
Bellydance from the arabic countries was common here, we had close contact with them and I been asked to lern this kind of dance for events.

Anyone who wants to help me?

Thank you.

Sammet · 09-27-2007, 07:58 AM

I shall add to this that Im not planning to dance before I am good at it.
So you dont need to worry about someone crazy trying to dance but is bad at it.

Maria_Aya · 09-27-2007, 09:38 AM

As oriental dance have suffered too much from the "Orientalist/sm" most of us doesnt even want to give something regarding this.
Orientalism/sts was a period of time where westerns traveled/visited/wrote about/painted the arab countries, but all this was throu their western culture.
The result was to raise up the harem fantasies, etc.
Personal i'm extremly sceptical to anyone that wants to re-create an ancient form of dance for specific reasons.
A, we dont have filming from that era, and just watching some paintings etc doesnt give us the text or the movement of the dance.
B, we dont really know the music danced at that time, and this is essential also.
C, what we have for that era's Ancient Greece, Ancient Egypt, Rome, later is from people that wrote history or personal experiences (many respectable) but also many not.
So its very risky for someone to try to give the oriental dance of that era.
And if so, it have to be cleary declared that is a personal Fantasy !

Maria Aya, Greece

From Greece that suffers of too many nutcases trying to dance ancient greek dance

nicknack · 09-27-2007, 11:23 AM

What exactly do you mean by Arabic countries? As national boundries are a relativley new concept in the Middle East. Are you talking about the overall area now covered by Arabic speaking countires, just the gulf region, the North African region? Even now each area has it's own distinctive dance styles. It'd be hard to know exactly was going on in the Middle East dance wise between 700CE and 1100CE. Before the Muslim conquests the region was under control of many different peoples including the ancient Kingdom of Israel, Assyrians, Babylonians, Greeks, Romans, and Byzantine... each of these left an influence that can be seen today (Romans created the arch, which developed into the dome, which became a main component of Byzantium architechture, which was absorbed in the Muslim conquests..... then came the Umayyads, Abassids, and Crusaders.... in a land of constant flux it would be easier to maybe concentrate on one specific region or ethnic grouping.

Sammet · 09-27-2007, 11:27 AM

Thank you for your anserw, althou I am not sure if I understood everything...
What is "Orientalist/sm"? And what is Orientalism/sts?
I am a beginner in bellydance and my english is not the best.

I can agree with you fully that its hard to understand and know how they did dance, if there is no book wrote by a real dancer during that period.
Its good to know that it does nto exist any book. Then I know its harder to re-create this dance.
Of course its always hard to re-create something, for example we re-create the vikings, a widespread belief is that they had horns on their helmets... they did not... why would they have somethign that silly?
There is no ancient (prehistoric) find of a helmet that looks like that... And to use a helmet with horns on would just be in the way, easy to strike of from the vikings head by a enemy...
And still 90% of the people that dont read history belive that the vikings had horns on their helmets...
So the history still get twisted, even with videos.

We cant either say for sure that they lived in a specific way of life. All we can do is assume, based on prehistoric finds and the knowlegs on how people act and react.
All we can do is to be sure that what we re-cteare is based on prehistoric finds, we use real cloth (for example wool and silk), and the techniques that we for sure know did exist back then, we know this cause we (humans, not we in the group) have found prehistoric finds that show us that yes, they Did have (for example) the possiblitity to weave even thou it did not look the same as it does today. We know this cause we found looms... for example.
When we know that, we re-create a loom that looks exactly (or as mutch as possible exactly if the finds are broken) from the prehistoric finds. And then we use the loom to weave. We are very thorough when we re-create and create. We sell jewelry that are copys from prehistoric finds, we wear cloths that are re-created based on prehistoric finds, some of our cloths are exactly re-created, some we "only" look how they did sew and made our own pattern, based on the "fashion" they had during this time. This is not "lajv", where you can say "yes they Might have lookd something like this so I can take moms old curtains and make me a dress from it...

So, if you trust me enough to let me lern more about the period of time, I would love to do my best to spread the True knowlegs that does exist about this dance from that time.
And if it does not exist, well, then all I can do is to tell people that no, it does not exist so mutch information, all I can do is dance something that migth remind about it.

All I can do is to assure you all that I am very careful, I dont want to lern something wrong and spread bad information that might hurt the bellydance.
I rather lern frmo people that know.

Of course I can lern to dance bellydance and claim it to be the same they did dance at the period of time, but that would hurt the bellydance, if I did it wrong. Thats why I turned to you.
Since there is, of what I understand, diffrent kind of bellydance, depending on what country you are from I would like to know more about those that the vikings had close contact with, the arabic countries.

The vikings did bring their own bellydancers here to sweden. They did not use drawings/paintings. (well they might have done that aswell). However the vikings where openminded, they did have many diffrent kind of gods they did worship, and they did not mind to live together with diffrent kind of religions. People that was not "vikings" but from other countries (for example the arabic coutnries).
There where vikings that traveled to other countries and did convert to other religions.
I would guess thou that bad texts and aintings would come from the crusade.
At least here in sweden they where very narrowminded compered to the vikings, only one god and they did not accept other religions.
The vikings did "convert" to this religion by accpeting this religion, aswell. Together with their own gods, true time the "one god" did take over this part of the world and the vikings became Christian. (the vikings where not one kind of people, but many, from all around europe, the word vikings belives to be a word for people from this part of the world that came to trade, discover, conquer and more with countries further south).

Well this became a bit oftopic perhaps.
All I want to point out is that the vikings did have Real bellydancers and that all I want to do is to re-create an as mutch as possible correct bellydance.
Im accurate and want to have knowlegs to share with people who are intressted. If there is no knowlegs to share about how they did exactly dance, there must atleast exist a history about the bellydance, how it did start, why they did dance, who did dance and so on.

At least I can share that historical correct.

I dont want to be a "nutcases trying to dance ancient greek dance"

I want to be me, dancing.

Sammet · 09-27-2007, 11:41 AM

Thanks.

I shall look in to this, I dont want to anserw right now since I want to be 110% sure I give a right anserw. I need to know exactly what countries the vikings where traveling to.

Althou I would like to see diffrent kinds of dances, could you perhaps give me some hint of how they dance (today) in turkey, egypt, syria, saudi arabia, greek (if Maria_Aya dont mind

) ...

I dont have a map infront of me but im intressted in countries close to the water (and that you can travel tofrom europe over sea), that the vikings could have traveled to. (they traveled true sea).

Quote:

Originally Posted by nicknack

What exactly do you mean by Arabic countries? As national boundries are a relativley new concept in the Middle East. Are you talking about the overall area now covered by Arabic speaking countires, just the gulf region, the North African region? Even now each area has it's own distinctive dance styles. It'd be hard to know exactly was going on in the Middle East dance wise between 700CE and 1100CE. Before the Muslim conquests the region was under control of many different peoples including the ancient Kingdom of Israel, Assyrians, Babylonians, Greeks, Romans, and Byzantine... each of these left an influence that can be seen today (Romans created the arch, which developed into the dome, which became a main component of Byzantium architechture, which was absorbed in the Muslim conquests..... then came the Umayyads, Abassids, and Crusaders.... in a land of constant flux it would be easier to maybe concentrate on one specific region or ethnic grouping.

gisela · 09-27-2007, 12:59 PM

Tjena Sammet! Välkommen till magdansvärlden

!

You ask:

Quote:

What is "Orientalist/sm"? And what is Orientalism/sts?

Maria aya already explained it in her first post:

Quote:

Originally Posted by Maria_Aya

Orientalism/sts was a period of time where westerns traveled/visited/wrote about/painted the arab countries, but all this was throu their western culture.
The result was to raise up the harem fantasies, etc.

Although I don't think the vikings were orientalists, but of course i wouldn't know. I thought that Orientalism primarily figured around the 17-18-early 1900. I guess the ideas could have been around longer just without being named as an -ism.

I find this quite interesting and I think Sammet deserves some help since she's asking honestly and trying to find out, instead of just assuming something. Also feeling protective of a fellow swede

.

You say that Vikings brought bellydancers to Sweden. How do we know that? What trace is there of them? curious

Also, bellydance is probably not the name you should use for it as bellydance had not yet been invented at the time of the vikings. As I understand from the more knowledgeable ones here, bellydance was invented by Badia Masabni in the 1920's(?) (AARG I try to pay attention, why can't I remember what you guys say?) as a stage/show-version of the folkloredances of the middleeast combined with some other dance elements from eg ballet.

there is a lot of information on this forum in old threads. Do a little search and you will find stuff both about the history and contemporary bellydance.

lycka till!
gisela

Aisha Azar · 09-27-2007, 01:23 PM

Dear Sammet,
Belly dance is nowhere near that old. It is roughly a hundred years old and its history can be traced back to one dancer in particular who developed it from folkloric dance styles and other elements in the late 1920s in Egypt, as mentioned by Gisela.
Her name was Badia Masabni. Please google her if you are interested in a realistic history of the dance form.
I would also like to add that your English is much better than most of our Swedish, so you are ahead of us in languages already!!
Regards,
A'isha

Mark_Balahadia · 09-27-2007, 02:32 PM

Hello,

The period of time you speak of approximately fits into the Abbasids to the Fatimids during Islamic history as well as the Umayyads in Adulucian Spain (I think).

I've heard that the term "el raqs el sharqi" is originally a term coined in the courts of Baghdad but as A'isha said belly dance today is a relatively modern dance form that has it's backbone in the folklore of Egypt, Lebanon and Turkey. At least in the Arab World, the Oriental dance we know today was pioneered by Badia Masabni.

FYI, many dances in the Arab world have very little documentation to speak of unfortunately, unless you are willing to search huge libraries specializing in Oriental literature and you are writing a disertation on women's dances in the Arab World circa 700-1100!!!

Tarik Sultan · 09-27-2007, 04:18 PM

Your intentions are very noble, but I'm afraid it will not be possible to achieve for several reasons. The biggest one being thatdance was and still is to a great degree, something that is considered too ordinary to spend attention on it. Dance ethnology was only invented in the 20th century. People only recorded topics that they felt were of importance, political events, religious concerns and other such topics. Dance was always considered a trivial, though enjoyable activity, so no one spent any time describing it in any great detail.

As for costuming, at this period of time there was no specific costume for dance. People simply wore their ordinary clothes. If they were wealthy, then they wore the most luxorious fabrics they could afford, if they were poor, then they danced in whatever they wore on their backs.

You may be able to get an idea of the dress from that period by looking at miniature paintings, however, they clothes were not very extravagent. They were designed to conceal the contours of the body, so they consisted mostly of loose caftans or tunics with some sort of belt or scarf around the waist.

You might have a better time finding examples of music from the period because they did write extencively on music, however, was this only listening music or were some of these dance songs, I couldn't tell you. Ali Jihad Racy I think would be the best source today to learn about the history of Arabic music as he seems to be the leading authority in that field.

Wish I could have been of more help, but honestly there are no records of what types of dances were done during this period, what the movements were like and what type of music was used. So anything that you do will be conjecture, which is fine as long as you are honest about it. Unfortunately some things are lost to time and can never be retrieved.

09-27-2007, 06:25 AM	#1 (permalink)
Sammet Junior Member Join Date: Sep 2007 Location: Sweden Posts: 13	Oriental bellydance during the 700-1100 AD. Hi. Im new here, and I think I did try to post a thread about this yesterday, but did not succeed. Im in need of your help. I am interested in history and bellydance and I wonder about the kind of bellydance that did exist during the 700-1100 AD in the Arabic countries. Can anyone tell me either some history, information, what kind of "dance movement" they did, perhaps even show me a video with example or point me to someone who can? I would be very greatfull. Why I ask is cause im part of a group that recreates this period of time to show peopel nowdays how people back then did live during this time here in sweden where I live. Bellydance from the arabic countries was common here, we had close contact with them and I been asked to lern this kind of dance for events. Anyone who wants to help me? Thank you.

09-27-2007, 07:58 AM	#2 (permalink)
Sammet Junior Member Join Date: Sep 2007 Location: Sweden Posts: 13	I shall add to this that Im not planning to dance before I am good at it. So you dont need to worry about someone crazy trying to dance but is bad at it. __________________ With best regards/Sammet

09-27-2007, 09:38 AM	#3 (permalink)
Maria_Aya Moderator Join Date: Jul 2006 Location: Athens, Greece Posts: 2,252	As oriental dance have suffered too much from the "Orientalist/sm" most of us doesnt even want to give something regarding this. Orientalism/sts was a period of time where westerns traveled/visited/wrote about/painted the arab countries, but all this was throu their western culture. The result was to raise up the harem fantasies, etc. Personal i'm extremly sceptical to anyone that wants to re-create an ancient form of dance for specific reasons. A, we dont have filming from that era, and just watching some paintings etc doesnt give us the text or the movement of the dance. B, we dont really know the music danced at that time, and this is essential also. C, what we have for that era's Ancient Greece, Ancient Egypt, Rome, later is from people that wrote history or personal experiences (many respectable) but also many not. So its very risky for someone to try to give the oriental dance of that era. And if so, it have to be cleary declared that is a personal Fantasy ! Maria Aya, Greece From Greece that suffers of too many nutcases trying to dance ancient greek dance __________________ ... www.orientalexpression.gr

09-27-2007, 11:23 AM	#4 (permalink)
nicknack Moderator Join Date: Dec 2006 Location: Nottingham UK Posts: 269	What exactly do you mean by Arabic countries? As national boundries are a relativley new concept in the Middle East. Are you talking about the overall area now covered by Arabic speaking countires, just the gulf region, the North African region? Even now each area has it's own distinctive dance styles. It'd be hard to know exactly was going on in the Middle East dance wise between 700CE and 1100CE. Before the Muslim conquests the region was under control of many different peoples including the ancient Kingdom of Israel, Assyrians, Babylonians, Greeks, Romans, and Byzantine... each of these left an influence that can be seen today (Romans created the arch, which developed into the dome, which became a main component of Byzantium architechture, which was absorbed in the Muslim conquests..... then came the Umayyads, Abassids, and Crusaders.... in a land of constant flux it would be easier to maybe concentrate on one specific region or ethnic grouping. __________________ *Cause I'm not here to let you down. But the costume makes the clown.*

09-27-2007, 11:27 AM	#5 (permalink)
Sammet Junior Member Join Date: Sep 2007 Location: Sweden Posts: 13	Thank you for your anserw, althou I am not sure if I understood everything... What is "Orientalist/sm"? And what is Orientalism/sts? I am a beginner in bellydance and my english is not the best. I can agree with you fully that its hard to understand and know how they did dance, if there is no book wrote by a real dancer during that period. Its good to know that it does nto exist any book. Then I know its harder to re-create this dance. Of course its always hard to re-create something, for example we re-create the vikings, a widespread belief is that they had horns on their helmets... they did not... why would they have somethign that silly? There is no ancient (prehistoric) find of a helmet that looks like that... And to use a helmet with horns on would just be in the way, easy to strike of from the vikings head by a enemy... And still 90% of the people that dont read history belive that the vikings had horns on their helmets... So the history still get twisted, even with videos. We cant either say for sure that they lived in a specific way of life. All we can do is assume, based on prehistoric finds and the knowlegs on how people act and react. All we can do is to be sure that what we re-cteare is based on prehistoric finds, we use real cloth (for example wool and silk), and the techniques that we for sure know did exist back then, we know this cause we (humans, not we in the group) have found prehistoric finds that show us that yes, they Did have (for example) the possiblitity to weave even thou it did not look the same as it does today. We know this cause we found looms... for example. When we know that, we re-create a loom that looks exactly (or as mutch as possible exactly if the finds are broken) from the prehistoric finds. And then we use the loom to weave. We are very thorough when we re-create and create. We sell jewelry that are copys from prehistoric finds, we wear cloths that are re-created based on prehistoric finds, some of our cloths are exactly re-created, some we "only" look how they did sew and made our own pattern, based on the "fashion" they had during this time. This is not "lajv", where you can say "yes they Might have lookd something like this so I can take moms old curtains and make me a dress from it... So, if you trust me enough to let me lern more about the period of time, I would love to do my best to spread the True knowlegs that does exist about this dance from that time. And if it does not exist, well, then all I can do is to tell people that no, it does not exist so mutch information, all I can do is dance something that migth remind about it. All I can do is to assure you all that I am very careful, I dont want to lern something wrong and spread bad information that might hurt the bellydance. I rather lern frmo people that know. Of course I can lern to dance bellydance and claim it to be the same they did dance at the period of time, but that would hurt the bellydance, if I did it wrong. Thats why I turned to you. Since there is, of what I understand, diffrent kind of bellydance, depending on what country you are from I would like to know more about those that the vikings had close contact with, the arabic countries. The vikings did bring their own bellydancers here to sweden. They did not use drawings/paintings. (well they might have done that aswell). However the vikings where openminded, they did have many diffrent kind of gods they did worship, and they did not mind to live together with diffrent kind of religions. People that was not "vikings" but from other countries (for example the arabic coutnries). There where vikings that traveled to other countries and did convert to other religions. I would guess thou that bad texts and aintings would come from the crusade. At least here in sweden they where very narrowminded compered to the vikings, only one god and they did not accept other religions. The vikings did "convert" to this religion by accpeting this religion, aswell. Together with their own gods, true time the "one god" did take over this part of the world and the vikings became Christian. (the vikings where not one kind of people, but many, from all around europe, the word vikings belives to be a word for people from this part of the world that came to trade, discover, conquer and more with countries further south). Well this became a bit oftopic perhaps. All I want to point out is that the vikings did have Real bellydancers and that all I want to do is to re-create an as mutch as possible correct bellydance. Im accurate and want to have knowlegs to share with people who are intressted. If there is no knowlegs to share about how they did exactly dance, there must atleast exist a history about the bellydance, how it did start, why they did dance, who did dance and so on. At least I can share that historical correct. I dont want to be a "nutcases trying to dance ancient greek dance" I want to be me, dancing. __________________ With best regards/Sammet

09-27-2007, 01:23 PM	#8 (permalink)
Aisha Azar V.I.P. Join Date: Jul 2006 Location: Pacific Northwest USA Posts: 4,516	Belly dance Dear Sammet, Belly dance is nowhere near that old. It is roughly a hundred years old and its history can be traced back to one dancer in particular who developed it from folkloric dance styles and other elements in the late 1920s in Egypt, as mentioned by Gisela. Her name was Badia Masabni. Please google her if you are interested in a realistic history of the dance form. I would also like to add that your English is much better than most of our Swedish, so you are ahead of us in languages already!! Regards, A'isha Last edited by Aisha Azar; 09-27-2007 at 01:28 PM.

09-27-2007, 02:32 PM	#9 (permalink)
Mark_Balahadia Member Join Date: Jul 2006 Location: balad ra'eesa Posts: 204	Hello, The period of time you speak of approximately fits into the Abbasids to the Fatimids during Islamic history as well as the Umayyads in Adulucian Spain (I think). I've heard that the term "el raqs el sharqi" is originally a term coined in the courts of Baghdad but as A'isha said belly dance today is a relatively modern dance form that has it's backbone in the folklore of Egypt, Lebanon and Turkey. At least in the Arab World, the Oriental dance we know today was pioneered by Badia Masabni. FYI, many dances in the Arab world have very little documentation to speak of unfortunately, unless you are willing to search huge libraries specializing in Oriental literature and you are writing a disertation on women's dances in the Arab World circa 700-1100!!! __________________ badde 3eish!!! www.markbalahadia.com

09-27-2007, 04:18 PM	#10 (permalink)
Tarik Sultan V.I.P. Join Date: Sep 2006 Location: Jersey City, New Jersey Posts: 1,373	Your intentions are very noble, but I'm afraid it will not be possible to achieve for several reasons. The biggest one being thatdance was and still is to a great degree, something that is considered too ordinary to spend attention on it. Dance ethnology was only invented in the 20th century. People only recorded topics that they felt were of importance, political events, religious concerns and other such topics. Dance was always considered a trivial, though enjoyable activity, so no one spent any time describing it in any great detail. As for costuming, at this period of time there was no specific costume for dance. People simply wore their ordinary clothes. If they were wealthy, then they wore the most luxorious fabrics they could afford, if they were poor, then they danced in whatever they wore on their backs. You may be able to get an idea of the dress from that period by looking at miniature paintings, however, they clothes were not very extravagent. They were designed to conceal the contours of the body, so they consisted mostly of loose caftans or tunics with some sort of belt or scarf around the waist. You might have a better time finding examples of music from the period because they did write extencively on music, however, was this only listening music or were some of these dance songs, I couldn't tell you. Ali Jihad Racy I think would be the best source today to learn about the history of Arabic music as he seems to be the leading authority in that field. Wish I could have been of more help, but honestly there are no records of what types of dances were done during this period, what the movements were like and what type of music was used. So anything that you do will be conjecture, which is fine as long as you are honest about it. Unfortunately some things are lost to time and can never be retrieved.