Oriental bellydance during the 700-1100 AD. - Page 2

Sammet · 09-28-2007, 12:28 PM

Thank to all anserws.

Since it seems like it migth be hard to get any knowlegs about how (what kind of dancemoves) they did during this period, I will have to lern to dance todays bellydance, and also inform people that this is a modern form.

Then I would ask what kind of bellydance you suggest?
Oriental? (and please tell me if there is diffrent oriental forms).

My thoughts about that is that I then have to inform, together with as mutch historical information as I can find about the kind of dance they did, that its very hard to find the dance they did back then and that I only can show nowdays kind of dance.

I still thou need to find some historical information about the dance they did back then.
Who, why and when (what reasons they did dance for) is 3 of the questions I would like to anserw.

I got a question about that thou. I found information that the bellydance started as, and now Im not sure here but I think it started by monks that prayed true dance, then men started to dance, and then the women took over. This should have started over 2000 years ago?
True or false? The information was over internet and thats why I am a biot unsure if its realy true.

I also wonder, was the dance used to entertain rich people? And how was those people dressed? Attire?

The vikings did, of what I understood from my information source, bring oriental dancers with them back home.
However, those dancers dont necessarily need to be called bellydancers, they where probbably the prehistoric form to the bellydance then?

Yesterday when I got home form work I had a email waiting for me.
It was an anserw from one of the association that has courses here in my town, (ABF for you swedish people).
The women who mailed me informed me that it started a course the same day, within 1,5 hourse from when I did read it.
I grabed some fruit and a sandwich, throw down some trainingclothes, run to the buss, got a bit late but...
I started a bellydance course! Its on 12 times, got 11 left now.

And it was So fun! And Waow! My body loved it, I have some smaller problems with my neck and back, nothing dangerus but i get pain easy.
I had pain when I went on the course, and today... my body is so flexible and I dont have near as mutch pain as I did yesterday...
Abit aches from the dance, but just normal ones you get when you train muscles thats not used to it. *giggles*

So, I am looking forward to lern more about it all.
Our teacher is a hmm educationalist(?) in dance and she was very strikt with that we had to use our bodies correct, but she also made us smile more then onces. I liked her way of training. Althou I am a beginner in all kind of dance, only danced on medivalfestivals without a trainer, so I cant say if she is good or not. I think she is thou.

I saw some of her older student dance aswell and they where very good (imo but then again... im a beginner).

Sammet · 09-28-2007, 12:33 PM

Hej Gisela och tack så mycket.

I am not sure what you mean by orientalists?

I shall ask my "historic pro" what traces we have form that the vikings had "bellydancers", or rather, folkloredancers from the oriental I guess we should call them?
So I can anserw you 110% correct and not give you the wrong anserw, that could be the start of missinformation. (like that vikings had horn on their helmets

)

Tack för din hjälp och ditt förtroende.

Sammet · 09-28-2007, 12:43 PM

Hi Mark.

Can you tell me more about Abbasids, Fatimids and Umayyads? What is that?
Is it diffrent danceforms? Or some kind of period of time? Sorry I dont understand more. Never heard those words before.

(Oh and I found you searching for "el raqs el sharqi" on google.

Need to read that later.)
What does "el raqs el sharqi" mean? Another (more correct) name for bellydance?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mark_Balahadia

The period of time you speak of approximately fits into the Abbasids to the Fatimids during Islamic history as well as the Umayyads in Adulucian Spain (I think).

Aisha Azar · 09-28-2007, 01:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sammet

Hej Gisela och tack så mycket.

I am not sure what you mean by orientalists?

I shall ask my "historic pro" what traces we have form that the vikings had "bellydancers", or rather, folkloredancers from the oriental I guess we should call them?
So I can anserw you 110% correct and not give you the wrong anserw, that could be the start of missinformation. (like that vikings had horn on their helmets

)

Tack för din hjälp och ditt förtroende.

Dear Sammet,
You are going to read a LOT, and I mean a WHOLE LOT of nonsense about belly dance in books, journals, on the internet and every other source you can think of, including many times, information offered by dancers themselves. Unfortunately, it takes years of experience to be able to have some good idea about what rings true and what does not.
The Orientalists were people who created art of some kind, usually men, but not always, who traveled to the Middle East, North Africa, India, Pakistan and other such countries in the late 19th century and depicted what they saw, and often embellished it. Painting, architecture, music, fashion, and later film, were all influenced by the things that these people saw in these countries. A wonderful, wonderful book that is well researched and full of great Orientalist art is called "The Orientalists". Author- Kristian Davies, Publisher- Laynfaroh, ISBN-0-9759783-0-6. Much of what the painters painted was in their imaginations instead of based on truth, but they influenced the entire world with their images.
They also prove that beauty and truth are not the same thing!!
Happy researches to you.
Regards,
A'isha

Mark_Balahadia · 09-28-2007, 02:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sammet

Hi Mark.

Can you tell me more about Abbasids, Fatimids and Umayyads? What is that?
Is it diffrent danceforms? Or some kind of period of time? Sorry I dont understand more. Never heard those words before.

(Oh and I found you searching for "el raqs el sharqi" on google.

Need to read that later.)
What does "el raqs el sharqi" mean? Another (more correct) name for bellydance?

The following denote different Islamic caliphites that were ruling during the time period you speak of. In order to understand dance history, one must understand the history surrounding dance to get the "bigger picture".

El raqs el sharqi is Classical Arabic for "The Dance of the East", also known as belly dance. This is the real term for "belly dance".

Kharmine · 09-30-2007, 06:00 AM

Sammet, what we call "belly dance" today is a fusion of Middle Eastern dance styles that evolved in the early 20th century. So it's not very old, but it came from some very old dances.

If you'd like to see some of those older Middle Eastern dance traditions I suggest Aisha Ali's web site. Ali is a dancer who has done research in the Middle East. She has good dvds in which she demonstrates the dances and gives quite a lot of information: Belly Dance with Aisha Ali

Aziyade · 10-05-2007, 07:46 PM

AAK!!! Thank you for this thread! I just went to Aisha Ali's website and found out she's going to be in North Carolina next year! WHOOPIE!!!! I have always wanted to do a workshop with her. Now's my chance!

(just had to gloat for a minute)

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kharmine

Sammet, what we call "belly dance" today is a fusion of Middle Eastern dance styles that evolved in the early 20th century. So it's not very old, but it came from some very old dances.

If you'd like to see some of those older Middle Eastern dance traditions I suggest Aisha Ali's web site. Ali is a dancer who has done research in the Middle East. She has good dvds in which she demonstrates the dances and gives quite a lot of information: Belly Dance with Aisha Ali

Sammet · 10-05-2007, 11:25 PM

Thank you for all anserws.
ANd thanks for the link Kharmine. Was a good source.

My guess is (I have not yet reached my best human information-source) that the vikings had the pre-bellydance then. What later became the bellydance.
And what many (me included before you helped me on the right way) belive is the bellydance. Now I know better. Thanks to you. *smiles*

Then my question is, how mutch of how we dance today, reminds of the dance it once was? The Middle eastern dances.

belly_dancer · 10-06-2007, 12:50 AM

the Islamic empire was in it's hey-day during 700-1200 AD... approximately..
(no orientalists yet... they were late 1700's onwards)..
the Islamic empire stretched all the way to spain (do not know abt today's portugal or france?!?!?)
what I would do if I were you is check out historical maps of that time, then overlap the vikings range of sea travel as to where that overlapped the Islamic empire... then you can figure out where those vikings picked up the pre-bellydancers!!!!

Andalusia (Spain) was an Islamic center of learning during the above time period... this was a great time of learning and a lot of our background in math, music & astronomy comes from these people & place.....
then the Christians fought back... came to power... & the infamous spanish Inquisitions started... etc.... & drove the "Moors" out of Spain... do not know if the "Moors" were Moroccan when they were in Spain, or that because that is where they fled, they became known as "Moors"... would LOVE to know more about that time.... (for instance, in both Ireland & Scotland I have heard that there are red & "black" irish (or scots) & that the "black" are decendants of the moors who either invaded or fled to the british isles)
DOES anyone know more???????

Kharmine · 10-06-2007, 01:58 AM

Oh dear, I'm afraid I just don't get this Viking-belly dance connection.

Is there truly a serious contention that the oldest known Nordic folk dances that may have been done by the Vikings of the medieval age are anything similar to the raqs sharqi that developed in early 20th century Egypt?

All I know is that the Moors were from Northern Africa. And I sure don't know of any contact between the Vikings and southern Spain, let alone the Middle East. I've seen an old medieval painting of a tournament with a Moorish knight on horseback but there is no explanation for his presence in England.

09-28-2007, 12:28 PM	#11 (permalink)
Sammet Junior Member Join Date: Sep 2007 Location: Sweden Posts: 13	Thank to all anserws. Since it seems like it migth be hard to get any knowlegs about how (what kind of dancemoves) they did during this period, I will have to lern to dance todays bellydance, and also inform people that this is a modern form. Then I would ask what kind of bellydance you suggest? Oriental? (and please tell me if there is diffrent oriental forms). My thoughts about that is that I then have to inform, together with as mutch historical information as I can find about the kind of dance they did, that its very hard to find the dance they did back then and that I only can show nowdays kind of dance. I still thou need to find some historical information about the dance they did back then. Who, why and when (what reasons they did dance for) is 3 of the questions I would like to anserw. I got a question about that thou. I found information that the bellydance started as, and now Im not sure here but I think it started by monks that prayed true dance, then men started to dance, and then the women took over. This should have started over 2000 years ago? True or false? The information was over internet and thats why I am a biot unsure if its realy true. I also wonder, was the dance used to entertain rich people? And how was those people dressed? Attire? The vikings did, of what I understood from my information source, bring oriental dancers with them back home. However, those dancers dont necessarily need to be called bellydancers, they where probbably the prehistoric form to the bellydance then? Yesterday when I got home form work I had a email waiting for me. It was an anserw from one of the association that has courses here in my town, (ABF for you swedish people). The women who mailed me informed me that it started a course the same day, within 1,5 hourse from when I did read it. I grabed some fruit and a sandwich, throw down some trainingclothes, run to the buss, got a bit late but... I started a bellydance course! Its on 12 times, got 11 left now. And it was So fun! And Waow! My body loved it, I have some smaller problems with my neck and back, nothing dangerus but i get pain easy. I had pain when I went on the course, and today... my body is so flexible and I dont have near as mutch pain as I did yesterday... Abit aches from the dance, but just normal ones you get when you train muscles thats not used to it. giggles So, I am looking forward to lern more about it all. Our teacher is a hmm educationalist(?) in dance and she was very strikt with that we had to use our bodies correct, but she also made us smile more then onces. I liked her way of training. Althou I am a beginner in all kind of dance, only danced on medivalfestivals without a trainer, so I cant say if she is good or not. I think she is thou. I saw some of her older student dance aswell and they where very good (imo but then again... im a beginner). __________________ With best regards/Sammet

09-28-2007, 12:33 PM	#12 (permalink)
Sammet Junior Member Join Date: Sep 2007 Location: Sweden Posts: 13	Hej Gisela och tack så mycket. I am not sure what you mean by orientalists? I shall ask my "historic pro" what traces we have form that the vikings had "bellydancers", or rather, folkloredancers from the oriental I guess we should call them? So I can anserw you 110% correct and not give you the wrong anserw, that could be the start of missinformation. (like that vikings had horn on their helmets ) Tack för din hjälp och ditt förtroende. __________________ With best regards/Sammet

09-30-2007, 06:00 AM	#16 (permalink)
Kharmine V.I.P. Join Date: Nov 2006 Location: Foot of the Rocky Mountains Posts: 1,248	Sammet, what we call "belly dance" today is a fusion of Middle Eastern dance styles that evolved in the early 20th century. So it's not very old, but it came from some very old dances. If you'd like to see some of those older Middle Eastern dance traditions I suggest Aisha Ali's web site. Ali is a dancer who has done research in the Middle East. She has good dvds in which she demonstrates the dances and gives quite a lot of information: Belly Dance with Aisha Ali __________________ What if the hokey pokey is really what it's all about?

10-05-2007, 11:25 PM	#18 (permalink)
Sammet Junior Member Join Date: Sep 2007 Location: Sweden Posts: 13	Thank you for all anserws. ANd thanks for the link Kharmine. Was a good source. My guess is (I have not yet reached my best human information-source) that the vikings had the pre-bellydance then. What later became the bellydance. And what many (me included before you helped me on the right way) belive is the bellydance. Now I know better. Thanks to you. smiles Then my question is, how mutch of how we dance today, reminds of the dance it once was? The Middle eastern dances. __________________ With best regards/Sammet

10-06-2007, 01:58 AM	#20 (permalink)
Kharmine V.I.P. Join Date: Nov 2006 Location: Foot of the Rocky Mountains Posts: 1,248	Oh dear, I'm afraid I just don't get this Viking-belly dance connection. Is there truly a serious contention that the oldest known Nordic folk dances that may have been done by the Vikings of the medieval age are anything similar to the raqs sharqi that developed in early 20th century Egypt? All I know is that the Moors were from Northern Africa. And I sure don't know of any contact between the Vikings and southern Spain, let alone the Middle East. I've seen an old medieval painting of a tournament with a Moorish knight on horseback but there is no explanation for his presence in England. __________________ What if the hokey pokey is really what it's all about?

10-06-2007, 12:50 AM	#19 (permalink)
belly_dancer Senior Member Join Date: Nov 2006 Location: central coast, California Posts: 569	the Islamic empire was in it's hey-day during 700-1200 AD... approximately.. (no orientalists yet... they were late 1700's onwards).. the Islamic empire stretched all the way to spain (do not know abt today's portugal or france?!?!?) what I would do if I were you is check out historical maps of that time, then overlap the vikings range of sea travel as to where that overlapped the Islamic empire... then you can figure out where those vikings picked up the pre-bellydancers!!!! Andalusia (Spain) was an Islamic center of learning during the above time period... this was a great time of learning and a lot of our background in math, music & astronomy comes from these people & place..... then the Christians fought back... came to power... & the infamous spanish Inquisitions started... etc.... & drove the "Moors" out of Spain... do not know if the "Moors" were Moroccan when they were in Spain, or that because that is where they fled, they became known as "Moors"... would LOVE to know more about that time.... (for instance, in both Ireland & Scotland I have heard that there are red & "black" irish (or scots) & that the "black" are decendants of the moors who either invaded or fled to the british isles) DOES anyone know more???????