Origin of Bellydance. YOUR opinion.

Reen.Blom · 08-12-2007, 09:20 PM

We can talk alot about the theories that exist, including the most ridiculous. But what YOU think is true? I assume if you do not agree with acertain theory you say will not put it onyour website?

I have seen on a couple of websites those "goddess" and "fertility rituals" references, also as it was a dance to prepare to childbirth.

Recently I have been poking facebook and stumbled over a bellydancegroup. The starter of it explains the origin of the dance as having roots in all those fertility rituals and childbirth preparation. So I think a person who never heard of it before will believe. Also she gives a reference to Wiki, I am not sure that Wiki has the same info, just looks like she 'quoted' Wiki, but just choosing certain parts....

What do you guys think?

I think it is really next to impossible to say that the 6000 old cave paintings depict belly dance! I have been thinking of it alot, as I would like to put a BD origin article on WBDD website. I think the more websites with positive image of bellydance the better!

Aisha Azar · 08-12-2007, 10:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Reen.Blom

We can talk alot about the theories that exist, including the most ridiculous. But what YOU think is true? I assume if you do not agree with acertain theory you say will not put it onyour website?

I have seen on a couple of websites those "goddess" and "fertility rituals" references, also as it was a dance to prepare to childbirth.

Recently I have been poking facebook and stumbled over a bellydancegroup. The starter of it explains the origin of the dance as having roots in all those fertility rituals and childbirth preparation. So I think a person who never heard of it before will believe. Also she gives a reference to Wiki, I am not sure that Wiki has the same info, just looks like she 'quoted' Wiki, but just choosing certain parts....

What do you guys think?

I think it is really next to impossible to say that the 6000 old cave paintings depict belly dance! I have been thinking of it alot, as I would like to put a BD origin article on WBDD website. I think the more websites with positive image of bellydance the better!

Dear Reen,
Belly dance is relatively new; about a hundred years old. Please Google Badia Masabni, who was the developerof the dance form. (I agree with you, and so do many dance scholars, that it is not possible to claim paleolithic art examples as proof of belly dance as an ancient art form.)
Regards,
A'isha

Shanazel · 08-12-2007, 10:51 PM

Did you all see the article in (of all places) Wall Street Today about belly dance? It includes every known cliche, from sultan pleasing to baby having to temple dances

. There are people teaching belly dancing for baby-having the same way other folks teach Lamaze. I have danced a long time and I have had two babies, and what I do in one situation has very little in common with what I did in the other, basic muscle groups not withstanding. Still, belly dance for baby-having is no weirder than LeBoyer.

Reen.Blom · 08-12-2007, 11:13 PM

Shanazel I agree you can put it the way it would benefit your purpose! Say if you teach bellydance to mothers-to-be then you say that BD originated as preparation to childbirth.

Others cheach the Goddess stuff so of course they gonna tell you that BD omes from ancient temples worshipping some Goddess.

If you want to teach BD as a dance of seduction (yuck) you gonna mention the Sultan and his harem full of bellydancers!

I just think when average person does internet research, he/she should not rely on one source. And the more sites are out there teaching all kinds of rubbish the worse it is for us! So I think we should reply to that with decent information!

I just thought it would be nice to link to other credible sources! Thank you Aisha for reference!If you guys and gals know of any other 'origin' articles on the net let me know!!

Love,Anna

PS Shanazel, Luckily for me I do not read newspapers nor magazines nor watch TV so I keep my mind clear of all that BS they are trying to sell us...LOL

janaki · 08-13-2007, 12:25 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Reen.Blom

Shanazel I agree you can put it the way it would benefit your purpose! Say if you teach bellydance to mothers-to-be then you say that BD originated as preparation to childbirth.

Others cheach the Goddess stuff so of course they gonna tell you that BD omes from ancient temples worshipping some Goddess.

If you want to teach BD as a dance of seduction (yuck) you gonna mention the Sultan and his harem full of bellydancers!

bI just think when average person does internet research, he/she should not rely on one source. And the more sites are out there teaching all kinds of rubbish the worse it is for us! So I think we should reply to that with decent information!

I just thought it would be nice to link to other credible sources! Thank you Aisha for reference!If you guys and gals know of any other 'origin' articles on the net let me know!!

Love,Anna

PS Shanazel, Luckily for me I do not read newspapers nor magazines nor watch TV so I keep my mind clear of all that BS they are trying to sell us...LOL

Hi Reen,

I think this is it. You apply it to benifit your purpose!!! If I may add one more application of bellydance pleeaasse???

"Worrior goddess bellydance, if you are dancing in war torn countries""

I feel much better now.

My theory is pretty much like A'isha's. Many elements are taken from middle eastern folk dances and refined and delivered as bellydance.

Kharmine · 08-13-2007, 02:42 AM

Belly dance as we know it today is a fusion of different Middle East and Mediterranean dance traditions with a strong Western influence.

Raqs sharqi, the Egyptian style, began in the Cairo cabarets of the early 1920s with performers from different countries (dancers from Algeria, Morocco, Syria, Lebanon and Egypt are all cited in histories) blending their styles and dancing to Westernized orchestras to appeal to the Western clientele.

Madame Badia, a Syrian Christian cabaret owner, gets the credit for introducing the use of veils, ballet arms, ballet turns, and other Western touches, and in giving such stars as Tahia Karioka and Samia Gamel their big breaks.

The Turks have their own version of the dance, the Greeks have theirs (both probably influenced by the success of raqs sharqi) and all of these styles were (and still are) commonly referred to as "Oriental dance" or "dance of the East" in their own countries and abroad in immigrant communities. They all inspired what often gets called "cabaret" in the United States.

Americans first learned from immigrants and imported dancers in the ethnic community nightclubs. "Belly dance" was already an old American slang term, derived from the older French term "danse du ventre," and Americans, like most Westerners, tended to call all the styles "belly dance."

Members of the ethnic communities came to call this "cabaret" style "belly dance." Not everybody likes the term "belly dance," but I don't have a problem with it, and Eddie "the Sheik" Kochak, who is one of the Arab-Americans famous for popularising it in the U.S., calls it "Middle Eastern in orgin," which is good enough for me.

Most, if not all, the movements can be traced to dances that are hundreds of years old but there's no one origin, and even people in the same countries danced similar dances for different reasons. There's no evidence worth a Hostess Ding Dong that it was developed for goddess worship any more than it was designed for titillating sultans.

charity · 08-13-2007, 03:48 AM

i wonder 100 years from now, how will they explain the role of belly dance in 2007? just like trying to explain the history, how would you begin to explain the present?

the meaning is different for each person, whether it is now or in the past. we all do it for different reasons. but mostly because... somehow we found a piece of ourself that could not be expressed by any other means. we express through dance. it allows us to be seen like no other explanations, no other words, no other art...

cathy · 08-13-2007, 11:35 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kharmine

Belly dance as we know it today is a fusion of different Middle East and Mediterranean dance traditions with a strong Western influence.

Raqs sharqi, the Egyptian style, began in the Cairo cabarets of the early 1920s with performers from different countries (dancers from Algeria, Morocco, Syria, Lebanon and Egypt are all cited in histories) blending their styles and dancing to Westernized orchestras to appeal to the Western clientele.

Madame Badia, a Syrian Christian cabaret owner, gets the credit for introducing the use of veils, ballet arms, ballet turns, and other Western touches, and in giving such stars as Tahia Karioka and Samia Gamel their big breaks.

The Turks have their own version of the dance, the Greeks have theirs (both probably influenced by the success of raqs sharqi) and all of these styles were (and still are) commonly referred to as "Oriental dance" or "dance of the East" in their own countries and abroad in immigrant communities. They all inspired what often gets called "cabaret" in the United States.

Americans first learned from immigrants and imported dancers in the ethnic community nightclubs. "Belly dance" was already an old American slang term, derived from the older French term "danse du ventre," and Americans, like most Westerners, tended to call all the styles "belly dance."

Members of the ethnic communities came to call this "cabaret" style "belly dance." Not everybody likes the term "belly dance," but I don't have a problem with it, and Eddie "the Sheik" Kochak, who is one of the Arab-Americans famous for popularising it in the U.S., calls it "Middle Eastern in orgin," which is good enough for me.

Most, if not all, the movements can be traced to dances that are hundreds of years old but there's no one origin, and even people in the same countries danced similar dances for different reasons. There's no evidence worth a Hostess Ding Dong that it was developed for goddess worship any more than it was designed for titillating sultans.

Kharmine, great summary! I didn't know Badia Masabni was a Christian, interesting! One of the reasons I don't use the term "belly dance" is because it is confusing and even within the community many different definitions exist. I like Oriental dance or raks sharki. Because the movements can be traced to much older folk and social forms still practiced in the Middle East today I see less of a hard line between raks sharki and other, older forms like raks beledi than some others.

BTW I recently learned that not all Egyptians consider Egypt an Arab country. Yes it was conquered by the Arabs but is not part of the Arabian Penninsula nor of course was the original culture or language Arabic. In the novel I'm reading (The Yacoubian Building, set in Cairo in what I think is the 1970s) Egyptians frequently discuss leaving Cairo and "going to work in an Arab country." (Probably should be a different thread, sorry. Yet another aspect of history that I want to read more about now.)

Cathy

Maroznia · 08-13-2007, 01:20 PM

Welcome to Morocco's Meanderings

Try this website for more info on History... Morocco is one of the most knowledgeable women on the East coast and beyond for accurate information on Bellydance Origins and History past.

If she is not out of the country she always returns e-mails to your questions.

You can find an article right now on her site aobut "Bellydancing and Childbirth"

Shanazel · 08-13-2007, 02:29 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kharmine

Members of the ethnic communities came to call this "cabaret" style "belly dance." Not everybody likes the term "belly dance," but I don't have a problem with it, and Eddie "the Sheik" Kochak, who is one of the Arab-Americans famous for popularising it in the U.S., calls it "Middle Eastern in orgin," which is good enough for me.

If we had a smilie showing a thumbs up position, I'd put it here. Hard to argue with Eddie, especially after all the miles I put in dancing to his music.

08-12-2007, 09:20 PM	#1 (permalink)
Reen.Blom V.I.P. Join Date: Apr 2007 Location: Between Heaven and Earth Posts: 2,262	Origin of Bellydance. YOUR opinion. We can talk alot about the theories that exist, including the most ridiculous. But what YOU think is true? I assume if you do not agree with acertain theory you say will not put it onyour website? I have seen on a couple of websites those "goddess" and "fertility rituals" references, also as it was a dance to prepare to childbirth. Recently I have been poking facebook and stumbled over a bellydancegroup. The starter of it explains the origin of the dance as having roots in all those fertility rituals and childbirth preparation. So I think a person who never heard of it before will believe. Also she gives a reference to Wiki, I am not sure that Wiki has the same info, just looks like she 'quoted' Wiki, but just choosing certain parts.... What do you guys think? I think it is really next to impossible to say that the 6000 old cave paintings depict belly dance! I have been thinking of it alot, as I would like to put a BD origin article on WBDD website. I think the more websites with positive image of bellydance the better! __________________ Join WORLD BELLY DANCE DAY! www.worldbellydanceday.com

08-12-2007, 10:51 PM	#3 (permalink)
Shanazel Moderator Join Date: Jul 2006 Location: Rocky Mountains USA Posts: 4,546	Did you all see the article in (of all places) Wall Street Today about belly dance? It includes every known cliche, from sultan pleasing to baby having to temple dances. There are people teaching belly dancing for baby-having the same way other folks teach Lamaze. I have danced a long time and I have had two babies, and what I do in one situation has very little in common with what I did in the other, basic muscle groups not withstanding. Still, belly dance for baby-having is no weirder than LeBoyer.

08-12-2007, 11:13 PM	#4 (permalink)
Reen.Blom V.I.P. Join Date: Apr 2007 Location: Between Heaven and Earth Posts: 2,262	Shanazel I agree you can put it the way it would benefit your purpose! Say if you teach bellydance to mothers-to-be then you say that BD originated as preparation to childbirth. Others cheach the Goddess stuff so of course they gonna tell you that BD omes from ancient temples worshipping some Goddess. If you want to teach BD as a dance of seduction (yuck) you gonna mention the Sultan and his harem full of bellydancers! I just think when average person does internet research, he/she should not rely on one source. And the more sites are out there teaching all kinds of rubbish the worse it is for us! So I think we should reply to that with decent information! I just thought it would be nice to link to other credible sources! Thank you Aisha for reference!If you guys and gals know of any other 'origin' articles on the net let me know!! Love,Anna PS Shanazel, Luckily for me I do not read newspapers nor magazines nor watch TV so I keep my mind clear of all that BS they are trying to sell us...LOL __________________ Join WORLD BELLY DANCE DAY! www.worldbellydanceday.com

08-13-2007, 02:42 AM	#6 (permalink)
Kharmine V.I.P. Join Date: Nov 2006 Location: Foot of the Rocky Mountains Posts: 1,248	Belly dance as we know it today is a fusion of different Middle East and Mediterranean dance traditions with a strong Western influence. Raqs sharqi, the Egyptian style, began in the Cairo cabarets of the early 1920s with performers from different countries (dancers from Algeria, Morocco, Syria, Lebanon and Egypt are all cited in histories) blending their styles and dancing to Westernized orchestras to appeal to the Western clientele. Madame Badia, a Syrian Christian cabaret owner, gets the credit for introducing the use of veils, ballet arms, ballet turns, and other Western touches, and in giving such stars as Tahia Karioka and Samia Gamel their big breaks. The Turks have their own version of the dance, the Greeks have theirs (both probably influenced by the success of raqs sharqi) and all of these styles were (and still are) commonly referred to as "Oriental dance" or "dance of the East" in their own countries and abroad in immigrant communities. They all inspired what often gets called "cabaret" in the United States. Americans first learned from immigrants and imported dancers in the ethnic community nightclubs. "Belly dance" was already an old American slang term, derived from the older French term "danse du ventre," and Americans, like most Westerners, tended to call all the styles "belly dance." Members of the ethnic communities came to call this "cabaret" style "belly dance." Not everybody likes the term "belly dance," but I don't have a problem with it, and Eddie "the Sheik" Kochak, who is one of the Arab-Americans famous for popularising it in the U.S., calls it "Middle Eastern in orgin," which is good enough for me. Most, if not all, the movements can be traced to dances that are hundreds of years old but there's no one origin, and even people in the same countries danced similar dances for different reasons. There's no evidence worth a Hostess Ding Dong that it was developed for goddess worship any more than it was designed for titillating sultans. __________________ What if the hokey pokey is really what it's all about?

08-13-2007, 01:20 PM	#9 (permalink)
Maroznia Junior Member Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: New England Posts: 4	Origins of Bellydance Welcome to Morocco's Meanderings Try this website for more info on History... Morocco is one of the most knowledgeable women on the East coast and beyond for accurate information on Bellydance Origins and History past. If she is not out of the country she always returns e-mails to your questions. You can find an article right now on her site aobut "Bellydancing and Childbirth" __________________ ~ A day I don't dance is the day I don't live~

08-13-2007, 03:48 AM	#7 (permalink)
charity Senior Member Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: north carolina Posts: 819	i wonder 100 years from now, how will they explain the role of belly dance in 2007? just like trying to explain the history, how would you begin to explain the present? the meaning is different for each person, whether it is now or in the past. we all do it for different reasons. but mostly because... somehow we found a piece of ourself that could not be expressed by any other means. we express through dance. it allows us to be seen like no other explanations, no other words, no other art...