Originally Posted by Tarik Sultan

Turkish Rom is one example where the torso comes into play. I never said that ALL Turkish dances are PREDOMINANTLY torso intensive, any more than all African ones are. Do you have an ISBN for the book? Kashlama in its original style has some torso movements as well. I have seen footage of it, done as a line/couples dance. Turkish style belly dance, which is influenced by Turkish folkdance as well as other sources, just like Egyptian dance, also has torso movements.

You have recently accused me of being selective in what I respond to in your posts... Don't you think that in all the questions I asked you above and all the different things discussed in that post, that you are being selective and doing some spin here? I am not trying to start an argument here. I only want you to see in yourself the same flaws that you keep pointing out in me. I usually do not bring personalities and character into things, but Tarik, you are not different from me in these aspects. Can we make a pact to stick with the issues and not slam each other's characters?

Originally Posted by A'isha Azar

Yes, we do know of course that there are torso centric dances in Turkey. Remember I said PERDOMINANT, meaning is it a common feature of most of the dances. So even though we do see examples of it in Roma dance and a few other dances, these represent exceptions rather than the rule. They do not occur with the same high level of frequency as we find on the African Continent as a whole.

As far as the book, Morocco could tell you because she has an original copy. Ahmad Lulechi made me a xerox copy, but I've since lost the title page. Should have bought a copy in Istanbul. They were selling them at Topkapi, but I though I would be able to get a cheaper copy on Taksim, but they didn't have it and when I went back, they were all out of them

Originally Posted by Tarik Sultan

Thanks for the info. I do realize that you said predominant, which is why I qualified what I said by stating that I think there is no predominance of those movements in any one country. What was it someone once pointed out about South Sea Island dance? The ones that are most commented on are the ones with a sexual feeling to them because that is what was most scandalous to Europeans of the time when they colonized the region. I think that is true of everyplace. We just did not hear so much about the other dances, like those of the Masai, for example, or the Watutsi. ( I appear to have a thing for watching extremely tall, thin people move. Basketball is the only sport I can stand to watch!!)) I think later that people like Josephine Baker sort of perpetuated the idea that "Africans" use those movements more than other groups. Yet, in true Can-Can, you can see along with the kicks, some very bawdy sexual movement in the torso and butt. It is a specifically western dance form. We see coming to America in the early colonization period, a very puritanical sort of European, who brought very few dances and those were good, Christian types of dances. Hardly anyone cared to comment on American Indian dance. (In an aside I should qualify this statement with the fact that I am aware that many people who came here, like my first white ancestor in America, were shanghaied hell raisers who did not necessarily work out well in the colonies. There were also prisoners sent here to work as slaves ...oh...since they were white I guess I should use the word "serf"???? Anyway, many prisoners were here for the crime of stepping in the way of a VIP and nothing more.)The other groups who lived in Europe were and are largely ignored. We know that their dances were not all holier than thou, in the manner of the puritans. there were sexual innuendos abounding. We just have heard less about them than about clogging, etc.
Regards,
A'isha

Originally Posted by A'isha Azar

But what I am referring to is something that is easily observable all over the continent and in the diaspora as well. Another thing is that the movements do not neccessarily have a sexual connotation, it depends on the context. Moveing those areas of the body is just a natural response to the music, hwta makes it sexual is how its done and to whom. So swinging the hips side to side in and of itself is not sexual, its the intent behind the movement. Like it I do it with my legs apart and making body contact for example.

For Europeans on the other hand, the movements of that part of the body do seem to carry a sexual message. The Can Can is a very sexual dance but does not use hardly any torso movements, its mostly legs. The Waltz was also considered very sexual, but it contains no pelvic or torso movements, nor does the Tango. Ballet also has sections of sexuality. The Pas de Duet, (spelling) is in fact stylized love making. That is the message, but once again, its free of torso movements.

In Africa on the other hand, the entire body, atms legs and torso is used. Sometimes the message is sexual sometimes its just celebratory. It depends on the context and the intent. The fact that other people move their hips from time to time does not change the situation. The issue is the level of fequency within which it occurs in a given geographical location and how widespread of an area that location is. This happens with great frequency in Africa, the same can not be observed in other parts of the world to the same degree, therefore as I said before, and in the context of this thread, and given Egypt's geographic location, those elements are African. However, there are other influences that are not of African origin in the dance as well, its a hybrid. Exactly when and how it all came together, is still anyones guess. However, as far as the remote origins, this is what I see, it has both African and Asiatic elements.

Originally Posted by Tarik Sultan

Considering the dance styles that surround Egyptians, specifically in the Maghrib and into the Levant, I am not sure that I agree. In both of these regions, closest to Egypt, we do not see so much of the whole body movement.

Originally Posted by A'isha Azar

Look at dances like the Nubian stuff,

Originally Posted by A'isha Azar

like Debke, and Ardah, the Gulf dances where originally there was little of pelvic or torso movement, like that dance the women do all covered up that is really all legs and bending... not sure of its name.

Originally Posted by A'isha Azar

While we have Ouled Nail and some Tunisian dances that are somewhat pelvically oriented, but not upper chest so much.

Originally Posted by A'isha Azar

Closer in to Egypt itself, we see they have dances that are based in the pelvis more than the torso, such as Beledi, which gives a nod to the occasional ribcage movement,but it based in the pelvis. Same with Ghawazi.

Originally Posted by A'isha Azar

We see Saidi which in its most traditional form is a mimicing dance and makes much use of the hands and face over what is really very simple hip movements and almost no chest.

Originally Posted by A'isha Azar

I see Egyptian belly dance as something entirely new, using a few folkloric pelvic/hip movements mostly taken from the folk dances of Egypt, adding a few undulatory and smoother movements that might be coming from anywhere considering that Masabni seemed to be a city girl and probably was exposed to a lot of different cultures, much as we are in cities today..

Originally Posted by A'isha Azar

She worked in Najib Al-Rihani's theatrical company before going out on her own, and so was actually exposed to a lot of stuff other than African.

Originally Posted by A'isha Azar

I would say the dance had many different influences, in Egypt developing into a dance that did not give credence to any specific country's overt influence, but actually being something very new, and in turn influencing what we see in shaabi and today Beledi today.

Originally Posted by A'isha Azar

The dance is very much Egyptian in its heart and sould and cu;tural affiliation, when in Egypt. We can say the same thing applies to the Lebanese dance style retaining the Lebanese soul and the Turkish dance doing the same in Turkey. They are all belly dance, yet all distinct in their flavor. The main influence in each style is the culture in which is grew up.
As you say, we can not know about the origins of all of these different movements. They are probably equally old in each part of the world, but I think their influence on belly dance did not come from one particular place outside the cultural environments in which the dance was born. Movement is ubiquitous, but specifics in culture is not.
Regards,
A'isha
Regards,
A'isha

Originally Posted by A'isha Azar

In the Maghrib as a whole we do in fact find the hips, shoulders, and chest playing a major role in many of the dances. Libya, Tunisia, Algeria and Morocco.

A'isha writes- BUT , often NOT as the major factor in the movement of the dance. of course there is some movement of the torso. I was under the
impression that you were talking of this as THE major African factor. For one thing, the clothing alone would prohibit torso movement from being a major factor in the dance as such from the audience viewpoint.



There is a lot more to Nubian dance, real Nubian dance, as opposed to the Theater folklore, which is very limited and not accurate representation. There are several different types of dances, not just one. In the line dances its not done, but the hips do play a role in the freestyle dances.

A. writes- I have seen real Nubian dance, by real Nubians, at parties here. Seems that there is a little action in the hips that is a natural outcome of movement in the body type, often not even conscious. Also the same with Ethiopians, of whom there are many in my little neighborhood here in Spokane



Exactly, bucause these areas are in a different zone. From what I have seen of various dances in the Penninsula, where you do find hip movements, it is the result of African contact.

A. writes- I think it might also be the natural outcome of the way the body moves and have little to do with this or that incoming influence.


The movements of the Arabs from Yemen to the Gulf countries and Saudia all seem to be comprised of shuffling movements and footwork as opposed to movements in the trunk of the body.

A. writes- I have studied Gulf and Saudi dance and some Yemeni, with natives. This is one area where I do consider myself to have expert knowledge. There is more of the hip than is immediately evident, even in the very traditional versions. I teach three different version of Gulf and Saudi and there is a definate lift and drop of the haunch as well as a push out to the front of the hip and the occasional swish to the side in all of the version that I have learned from the natives. However, it is not the dance itself that calls for it, but the natural way the body responds to the music....very different from African dance but still torso movement. That shuffle is pretty much body inclusive.



There is much more to Algerian Dance than Oulid Nail and the hips abdomin shoulders and chest are in deed used. The same goes for Morocco. So if we look at the region as a whole, not just one or two specific dances, we find these elements very much present in the overall movement vocabulary of the region.


A writes- MY Grandfather told me about seeing the Ouled Nail in a personal and up close private showing. Naked, the women move their bodies, not just their torsos, nor is torso movement the main point. He watched them even flex the muscles in their forearms in order to show muscle control. It was almost not a dance, but an exhibition of muscular control. I have studied Ouled Nail and some Moroccan dances and can say with confidence that thoso movement is often not the point of the dances in those regions at all, as it is in some parts of Africa. Even the clothing they wear defeats that as a major factor in the dance. The entire thinking about the dances is different than it is in other areas.






This is only one out of many dances in the Said. If you look at my video on youtube of Mahsoub, you will see that the chest is used in the dance, and if you look at Osman, you will see that the abdomin is used as well as undulations although very coarsely.

A. writes- And these dances are only one of the Saidi dances, too. There are just as many without the predominant factor of hip movement as there are with. I learned traditional Saidi dance from a Saidi girl and I think she said it best. Saidi dance is always about making fun of someone or pretending like you are doing something, like baking bread, or pretending to be your uncle when he walks in the village, or pretending to be your sister looking in the mirror at herself. Saidi dance is about living and it all ain't hip or torso related. That is part of the story telling aspect of the dance. Hands and face are extremely much the predominant factor.


undulations and the smoother moves are very much a part of raks baladi, so how they became incorporated into Sharki is no mystery. The fluid hand movements also are used in Beladi. However, I think they are Asiatic rather than African, simply because with the exception of the African countries in contact with the greater Middle Eastern cultures, we don't find them. However, if we look at the countries og Central Asia we do see them , we find them as far East as Western China. In fact all across Asia, we see fluid and gracefull hand and arm movements occuring with regularity.

A.writes- There is of course no way to prove this, but my theory is that a lot of the slower movements and the smoother movements are new to Beledi. these are not movements that go with the folkloric feel of Beledi as traditional music. I do not think they are Asiatic. I think they are probably a culmination of the people moving into the cities and seeing all kinds of new things from all kinds of new places, not just one source.



Of course. Also remember that this is the context of the theater rather than the folk arena, so yes we also find European elements being added to the theatrical dance at this time which is now know as Sharki.

A'isha writes- It is not "Now" known as Sharghi. Badia Masabni named her new dance that. It is what Sharghi is. Sharghi has never been a folk dance. it has always been a stage entertainment.



I agree that what we see in Sharki is the culmination of many different elements. I just singled out one of those elements, the African, but that does not mean its the only element that went into it. I don't know if I agree so much with the statement that Sharki influenced Shabbi and Baladi. If you mean theatrical presentation, then maybe. I think it more that they theatricalised its presentation somewhat at the same time Sharki was developed. But I see very little influence on the dance as done by the ordinary people at home.


A'isha writes- I think that at least as long as there have been people going to movies that Sharghi has influenced both Beledi and Shaabi styes. That is nearly as long as the dance has been around. It happens more and more as we can see by what the kids in the streets are doing. Ordinary people at home are the people who are doing Shaabi and Beledi in its real forms. it is what I see happening when I party with my Arab friends and it is greatly influenced by what famous dancers are doing. Because Arabs thrive on gossip and adore their stars ( even those with naughty reputations), they tend to know WAY more about them, than, say, I know about dance or singing stars or actresses here. These people are into their stars and they are incorporating belly dance into what they do big time. I see it at every party.



I agree to a large degree here. Even though I speak of certain elements as belonging to the African or Asiatic context, Egypt like every other country in Africa, and the world for that matter, has its own unique identity. Therefore, even though we may find the same movement in Congo that we do in Egypt, it is the unique personality with which it is executed in the larger context that gives it its identity.

Originally Posted by A'isha Azar

Do you have an ISBN for the book?

Originally Posted by Kiraze

As I have original copy of the book (Metin And: the pictorial history of Turkish Dancing) I can tell that there is no ISBN ... the book is printed in Turkey year 1976 by Dost Yayinlari and it can occasionally be found even from Amazon (I grabbed my copy with ridiculous 5USD price)

One notable thing about this book is that Metin And is strongly influenced by studies of Curt Sachs who he mentions as his friend and mentor so to understand where his interpretation comes from also Curt Sachs´ book "World History of the Dance" (originally from year 1937 and new version from 1965) is worth studying (ISBN: 0 393 00209 8).